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I agree. I don’t support a new association, and though there is virtually no homework to show that this idea has broad appeal, Al you seem intent on moving forward, without regard to whether or not this effort has any real chance for success. Wrong idea, wrong time, in my opinion.
Dave, you say educating the public. To make statments about the pros of solid surface needs backing, clout. I would like to set a handout in our show room about all the great possibilties of solid surface vurses other materials that could be backed by SSA someday. Right now around here many folks still call ss Corian genericly. I can only talk so much and my words only go so far.
David,
After the years that ISSFA has been around, consumers still don’t even know who they are, much less another association. A document with a name stamped on the back that a consumer doesn’t recognise will NOT cause a woman buying countertops to stop and go, “oh, okay, well if the SSA says it’s so, then I’ll buy solid surface!”
It’s not just around your parts Dave, it’s everywhere. I have Staron tops in the kitchen and LG tops in the bathrooms but guests still refer to it as Corian. That’s ok. I show them why it was my top of choice.
We don’t need handouts, we just need fabricators like you pushing the pluses. Word of mouth in any venture superceeds any ad campaign one can muster.
Dave, do you ever sleep?
I agree with Mory’s and most others post. I think if we want an association that works for us then we should take action and each of us send a certified letter to the people that are in charge of ISSFA. I would start with the BOD. Who votes in the Board of directors and who signed the 7 year agreement with OX? That person should receive these letters too. If that does not go anywhere let’s start a pool and collect the money that we would have spent for a new association and go correct it.
To be honest ISSFA never did anything for me. I think that Forum members are the ones that are value to me. Remember guys that there are trends and maybe instead of fighting the fight on what granite does or does not do and offer the stuff. I started selling estone and I tell you I order it after templating or measuring and drawing a CAD. I pick it up and install it and collect some Green. No fabrication, No storage, We use Euro seams and I slam those so tight that you can’t see the seam and get them perfectly level. Simple job for me except that the stuff is heavy.
I forgot to mention that if I do not renew my membership with ISSFA I will just send some cash to Andy to support this site. Mybe he will put my ugly face in the sponsors section rather then a logo 🙂
Good post, Mory, good arguments. I agree that if Oxley was booted out, issfa might, might be able to attact the likes of Andy, Nomr, Amir and others back into helping out.
What I am doing my best to show you that forming another group would be formalizing the oppostition to Oxley, driving the point home that he has alienated many. How many times has the point be made that anything started could be folded into issfa once control has been regained? Spur as well as carrot on a stick.
Your point on the testing not being supported by the brands has been brought up before, as you put it, they have it and are siting on it to protect future marketing. So what it boils down to is that many feel that this info would be worth having, certainly the stone and quartz brands paid for testing in 2006 and plastered it all over the internet, posters, handouts for consumers.
Why should we not do the same? Of course you sell all kinds, so do I, so does Tom. It doesn’t matter, what matters is that it is our material of choice and there needs to be the same support for the product that stone and quartz has. If it is left up to fabricators to build that support, so be it.
I know that Avonite’s leader has been into granite for quite a while, so no doubt it is true that the brands are going with the flow. That will take them away from their area of expertise and there will be growing pains. Besides, I can get slabs from the local slab yards, I don’t need a large company to be the middleman. Heck, anyone with $40,000 can import his own container of solid surface or granite and I bet quartz will be next as the chinese aren’t much on patents.
Where will the value be to get me to buy from a brand? A 10 year guarantee full of loopholes? Distribution? I can get slabs the same day, here in little old OKC, I don’t need Avonite, Corian or Staron for that. And why in the hell would a major brand get into a product that is approaching the commodity stage of it’s life? Not saying you are wrong, just that where is the value?
Bottom line, Stone and Quartz have the MIA. Stone and quartz have issfa. What does solid surface have? If you support all products you wouldn’t mind that unbiased testing be done.
This is not so much about materials as it is about the large shops that sell wholesale against the small shops that sell quality work. I don’t sell just countertops, I sell kitchens. Being able to guide a consumer into a low maintance, long lasting material is crucial to getting the word of mouth needed to thrive. We have already done second kitchens for some customers which wouldn’t happen if we sold just anything.
I didn’t like the direction ISSFA was going. Doesn’t mean the entire membership doesn’t like it. In fact, many of the members of ISSFA really like what they do and are happy with the direction and the educational classes they offer. They are more than happy to spend their money.
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that tearing them apart will help or change it. I am not saying that you shouldn’t expect change or even ask for it. But you should be very careful before going to ISSFA and making an uproar without knowing more facts. That is not fair to ISSFA or its members.
I didn’t like it so that is why there is the FabNet. If you don’t like FabNet I wouldn’t expect you to create problems just because you expect something different.
Just my opinion.
As usual, previously being in the thick of both Issfa and forming Fabnet, Andy realizes that there is little support WITHIN Issfa for change. A bunch of outsiders will be met with resistance, logically so, for if they are not members, what right do they have to interfere?
Using that same argument, if a person doesn’t support an alternate association, short of refusing to join, what is the base for their right to lobby against forming an association? I do understand that this thread is the exception, as it was started as a place to question the needs and motivation of those forming SSA. Fair enough to speak your mind regardless of where you stand. But going to Issfa with letters will go no where, nor will bringing in lawyers into the fray. The debate is about a persons choice to be satisfied with the direction of issfa, as it now stands.
The old saying, }Don’t be unhappy because you didn’t get what you wanted, just be glad that you didn’t get what you deserved” is relevant to this disscussion. Some fabricators were unhappy with issfa and they left to form Fabnet, they didn’t get what they wanted and worked to change that. As issfa members, like Jon, are working to change issfa from within. Other former issfa members, along with at least one current issfa member are working outside issfa, encouraging an alternative to issfa that will do one of three things, provide incentive for issfa to change, suceed, surpase, and replace issfa, or fizzle out after a while.
The manner in which these guys are working do no harm to issfa, but it does take away people and power from those who want to stage a coup at issfa. In fact, if Issfa’s leadership is smart, they will use the effort to see what is missing and effect change. The entire structure of Issfa is about control and secrecy, so that is the first thing that must change to bring back the dissaffected. Volunteers will have to have a say instead of being told what to work on, they will have to be able to post on their BB, the only effective way to comunicate with each other, without fear of being silenced.
Most people understand that in a group, you won’t allways get your way. Most of us learn that in childhood, share the toys, play fair or go home. Andy has provided an excellent enviroment for that spirit of co-operaton and look how it has taken off. If I remember correctly, there was around 200 members or less 10 months ago, five times that number and growing steadily every week. Turning Fabnet against issfa will not help any but those who want to take control by force instead of as Gene put it, providing a welcome place as an alternative.
What I suggest those in favor of staging a coup is this, consider working toward the goals you want issfa to take, either here at Fabnet or at what ever alternate organization that you prefer. Show leadership, not petulance. Leadership also demands that you prove that you are going to stick to the goal till it is done, consistant work ethic and taking care of responsiblities is the way to get others to support your goals.
Just my opinion, of course I could be wrong……
Kurt wrote
I finally finished reading this thread from the begining. Alot of great points were made. To all whom are trying to make a difference in our industry I say; well done!
I make no reservation or hide the fact that I am a proud supporter of ISSFA. I stiil have value for ISSFA. Others may not share my opinion and they are entitled to theirs. Someone brought up the obvious fact that it’s about the comradery. Comradery here or there is still comradery. It’s really just geography when you look at it.
Someone said the ship is off course. People like myself and Jonny O and others are trying to change that. Just like the dedicated group of people here. Making a difference here or there for the betterment of the industry is still just geography.
Someone said the manufactueres were doing their own thing. Well if I was a manufacturer emersed in a changing market; what would you have me do. Support this group, that group, or an other. WAIT until one group emerges above the others? WAIT until the fabricators unite as one common voice? Who, what, when?
Someone said,” Can’t we all just get along?” Why can’t we with out conditions? It’s what is in the best interest of all of us. I beleive the lack of is what holds this industry back. Growing the industry together. Keyword is together. After all comradery is what most of us seek. ISSFA is where alot of us met, where we got our start.
I can only speak from my own experiences. Being active in an association requires effort, feelings are going to get hurt, working as a group usually takes longer than working as individuals. Many graet ideas are going to put on the table. Some will take priority and others will be put on the back burner until later. That’s usually where the hurt feelings come in. To those whom step up to help lead; I offer this. When things go right; life is great. Try as you might and a decision goes bad; your name is instantly mud. Hope you have thick skin. Try not to take it personal because everyone will offer an opinon.
It’s not all bad; It can be quite rewarding. I have a freind who says it best,” You reap what you sow!” You get out what you put into it. Here or there; It’s still just geography.
I didn’t come here to draw lines in the sand or even say starting a new association is the wrong thing to do. If you follow your heart how can you be wrong. I still say the sky is blue and one of my best freinds is color blind and he may have a different veiw. So be it!
I always feel welcomed here as should all of you when you stop by ISSFA.
To quote Forest Gump,”That’s all I have to say about that!”
Best wishes and good night,
Kurt
PS These are just my personal opinions and this is the second posting. The first one didn’t take. It flowed alot better by the way.
Kurt,
I can say this, when you have control of issfa, send me an application form, or just email me because I still have the one oxley sent sitting by my lazyboy at home. Your views would lift issfa from the malaize it has fallen into. It is obvious you want change, are woring within to effect change and the two of us are indeed separated by geography only.
Al
Len Smith wrote
I agree. I don’t support a new association, and though there is virtually no homework to show that this idea has broad appeal, Al you seem intent on moving forward, without regard to whether or not this effort has any real chance for success. Wrong idea, wrong time, in my opinion.
Len,
I count 14 people that have stood up against the critcizm and either voted or voiced their support for forming an association.
I count 5 people who are dead set against forming an association.
I count three that are unsure, or have voiced opinions both ways (fair enough, a foolish consistency is the sign of a foolish mind).
It is widely reported that website participation is around one percent. Those with the strongest feelings or thoughts will join in while others watch. That in no way invalidates the simple fact that 22 people have views, 63% of participants favor starting the new organization, 22.7% of participants are dead set against a new association, and 13.6% are in favor of the goals of tne new association but are unsure if it is a good idea.
There is your survey. I would bet money that if a valid survey was done in conjunction with telling them what is trying to be done, the statistics would be the same.
How about this, since you control a popular website, how about you asking this question over at geeks, or allowing someone to ask the question on the forum?
Great site, by the way, it was the first place I got to get advice from and it help me a lot. Thanks for all the work you did to keep it going.
Al,
I know Curt, John, and a few others are working their tails off to get ISSFA back on track. I know there have been people dismissed because of their lack of participation. They are not doing this for their health or for fun. They believe in what they are doing. I haven’t seen that type of leadership since I originally joined. It looks like it to me that they are starting to get things done. At least someone is trying. I think things will change and I know the Fabricator Network had forced alot of it. That is one reason Andy and I started this thing. I am not saying that it is all going to work out, but at least I do see some changes happening. I still think some people need to step aside and let the fabricators have the voice and make smart decisions and get this thing in the right direction. The only way things get done is by people like you and others that are willing to fight for something you believe in. I myself like being with leaders not followers. Just my two cents.
Mory
Mory,
Then we agree that Kurt, John, Andy, yourself and those working on ssa are all working toward the same goal? For my part, I agree with your post.
Len Smith wrote
David, After the years that ISSFA has been around, consumers still don’t even know who they are, much less another association. A document with a name stamped on the back that a consumer doesn’t recognise will NOT cause a woman buying countertops to stop and go, “oh, okay, well if the SSA says it’s so, then I’ll buy solid surface!”
Hi Len, I didn’t know myself who ISSFA was until I needed to. I am a small fish in the big pond of SS probably the smallest . However I am a big fish in my puddle of a community. I am constantly correcting shoppers of the diff. brands availible . I don’t know if you have read any of my posts reguarding tile and concrete counters in my area but it’s rampant . It’s partly because this land of due it yourselfers and also thats what people are seeing out there. You say to have the backing of an organization won’t make a diff. then why do many fabbers bother to hang an ISSfa banner on there shop signs. I think it could help David
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