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Posts
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Al,
You call old people sir. My dad is sir. I’m just, Mory.
Dave,
My hat goes off to you for editing your post. You are a noble steed .
Dave,
It was up and down before I had a chance to read it. Thank you and I will call.
Al, please understand, I am all for change at ISSFA. I am also all for having you say what you will on a public forum. It’s your Andy-given right to do so, and bless you for it. I just don’t want to give any ammo to those that might claim an undue outside influence is happening.
I’ll hear about it when it’s right to hear about it.
Why Not?
1. Someone else is already doing it
2. I don’t have the time
3. If I just join the other guys, maybe I can make them be what I want
4. It might offend those that stand to lose business from this
5. If I support this, how can I support that too
WOW..these are all the same questions I beat myself up with while doubting myself before opening my 1st business and my second business….probably will do the same for the next I open.
I say go for it. I’m in. I support SSA. Maybe it won’t change the world. Maybe the work done will only effect a couple of percent of buyers..GREAT! I tell managers that work for me to make sure to put their two cents in all the time. That way when they get to 50 times, I will have made a buck off of them. Every little bit of growth, every little bit of education, every little bit of product awareness helps. That is why I am sure this movement can do nothing but help.
Al, Norm and the others…Let me know what I can do to help. I don’t have much time, but I do have some. And that’s always better than none.
Tom M wrote
Al,
You have to let whatever is going on at ISSFA happen without much comment.
You’re not helping them by speculating.
Making insinuations about someone – even if in a nickname won’t be helping them either.
Tom, respectfully exactly what did I insinuate? I did make some straight out statements, one about Oxley pulling public access to the board because of one person. I asked that before, to the person who was alledgedly the cause, and it wasn’t denied. If that is a wrong statement, given proof, I will retract that oxley pulled the plug on public access to the BB.
Was there ever public access as I have been told, or has it always been restricted to members only?
I’ll look bach through and see if there are any other insinuations.
al wrote
Kurt wrote No offense to anyone. I think Jon said it best. I talk to alot of people. People who still just fab solid surface and people whom fab other products as well. ISSFA is made up of both, the fab net is made up of both. Starting another place for me to chase after on the internet just to keep up with what’s new; the thougt is gives me a headache. Not because it’s a bad idea, just because I don’t have enough hours in the day already. Does that make sense. Why can’t we just work together to improve what is already in available? I not telling anyone what to do; just asking??
Kurt
Kurt,
That is a good question, why can’t we all work together with what we already have.
From the begining, Issfa bashing was discouraged on Fabnet, while discussing the issues was allowed, which is one of the reasons that Fabnet grew so fast, no censoring posts. On another site, Lenny asked a great question that was not answered, about Joe’s questions that went unanswered. Now, I am on record supporting what was done. No other way to handle the situation, but what lead up to the unpleasantness was a couple of unaswered questions. What ever lead up to the situation, I deplored the attack on Jon.
This is the reason for Andy’s sucess, not muzzling members on controversial subjects. While I visit Len’s forum to keep up, let’s face it, it isn’t burning up with visitors because the crowd prefers to come here. Same thing on Issfa BB, a few members keeping the public section from being barren.
The preceding paragraphs lead up to this, some things are best not done directly onFabnet, things that are better kept private. Like the original Consumer Report letter, which was started on Google shareware so people could modify the letter and add content. The same method started the ball rolling on the Warranty Chart, which was started on Google, with Andy doing the bulk of the work after the project stalled from lack of volunteers. Shane and I got three or four done, but when I posted here on Fabnet for someone to look over the Corian info. we got zero help.
Issfa costs way too much, has little to offer, as Amir put so well the other day in another post. I can see where shops that need new people trained, or members sitting on the board still get some benefit. I have benefited greatly from being active on Fabnet, so I can imagine the pull you have if you are a board member. Oxley faxed me some stuff about joining Issfa last october when I was interested in joining, reading it, I could find no real benifit except maybe attending the show.
Remember that famous thread, I think it was over 4,000 views, the one that Vendetta joined in on? A simple discussion of value drew so much controversy, even resulted in an intrusion on Andy’s and Mory’s computers, if I remember right.
So if former Issfa members want to help the good guys at Issfa turn it around, they have to pay $450.00, or post here and take the heat for doing so. Luckily for you issfa guys, you can post negtive things about forming an association, but can you personally guarantee me the same right over at the Issfa public section? Can I go over there and post an invite to join SSA? Or post why I didn’t join Issfa?
The only reason that an association came up was because we had received $800.00 in pledges toward the bacteria testing. I mentioned starting a bank account, and the concensus was that it shouldn’t be done privately. I countered with a PayPal acount for storing and dispersing the funds, some objected, as is there right. The next few days, the complaining started again, why is Solid Surface being abused in the media and why isn’t anyone standing up for it.
Look at every project that I was involved in here to date. It all starts with a group of people complaining about something, bemoaning the fact that nothing is being done about it. Complaints about Consumer Reports, well it got done, didn’t it? Something that I can send you an email in which Oxley told me that nothing could be done about. Less than one percent of Fabnet joined in, got our heads together and let them know that there was a group of people that could get them better info. A dialoge was started, one that will result in better info for consumers and better market share for solid surface.
Warranty chart, got done. Basic research on bacteria and countertop surfaces got done to enable us to be able to ask relevant questions Money pledges got started, and only remain uncollected because the consensus was that we needed a group to watch over the funds and provide legitimacy to raise more. One project remains unfinished, the universal fabricator manual, stalled because of lack of time, with maybe 80% of it done. Bacteria study became more important, so while I get time to work on it every week, I can’t spend much more time and still have a personal life. Which leads to the most important reason to form a new association.
I need help, I asked for help, posted a list of stuff that needs doing that resulted in three or four joining in, but not enough to get the job done. Here at Fabnet, about one percent of the members have helped on projects, we need to expand that base if we want to continue working toward our goals. The idea was put forth that some would contribute cash when they had no time, so we needed dues paid, donations , which required a solid group, one with rules, one that was accountable.
Issfa is way too expensive, I know, I have already said that. If the cash was going toward usefull projects, it would be different, in fact, it goes to pay useless overhead, a handsome salary to one in particular, while the original group of employes were sacked so Oxley’s family and croneys could be hired. Or so I was told by multiple sources. No disrespect to you intended, everybody says you are one of the good guys trying to turn things around, but you guys depend on selling out to the high bidder so you can pay the bills, or at least try to stem the hemmorage of cash. What was it, a half million deficit last year, made up by going into savings from selling the show?
What is needed is a small, quick, volunteer group, internet based so it is cheap to run, with almost all money going toward worthwhile projects. A place that you pay a few bucks dues, and join in spreading the word about solid surfaces great qualities for counter tops and so much more. Fabnet is great, and I do a lot of things to support it, but it is a free ride for all. An association can and will collect some cash for projects as well as gathering like minded people in place where things get done, not just talked about. Just like Fabnet, but we can raise money to help.
Also, were can people gather to fight to get issfa turned around? Are you going to start a section or thread asking for allies to back a take over? While not my idea of the best use of time and money, if enough interested people approached us, we would make a place for them, as long as they supported the other projects with dues.
Have I mentioned that Issfa is too expensive? I couldn’t afford to join when I got started, needed the help, but there is was. My understanding, correct me if I am wrong, but did Oxley pull public access to the BB because of Joe? The many, including newcomers to the trade were punished because he didn’t like criticizm from one man? So these newcomers started hacking out work, lowering prices because they didn’t know anyone to ask about the going rates, butchering jobs because they didn’t have the experience, all for the sake on one man, Robber Toxley.
Rambling, but in there somewhere you might understand why we need a way to raise support and gather interested people to get some things done. This is NO different than the bacteria study, people coming together, sharing expenses, working as a group to get work done and published that many say has been done and is being sat on by the brands to protect future marketing opportunites. It needs done now. I agree with Russ Lee and others, buying a top is a emotional thing for women, but i can help add an emotion, fear and doubt about some choices and safety and security about others.
Tom,
I looked back through. I found references to Oxley sacking the employees of issfa when he took over and hiring family members. I have been told that this is a fact by former employees of issfa, and the other day, it was posted about his family working there, what do they call it, nepotism?
I posted about some being banned and post being removed at the issfa BB, based on what posts on geeks said, as well as looking for the post that Joe posted as “Joesph”, couldn’t find it where it used to be, perhaps I need to look again.
The half million deficit, wasn’t that in the annual report that Issfa released? Am I wrong? Do I remembe Oxley saying in an email that they had around three million in the bank, so where did the other million go if not deficit spending?
Tom, let me know if I missed anything and I will reply to defend or edit the post. I respect your opinion, and when you say I am wrong, I tend to listen.
Lets face facts.. ISSFA business is about making money to continue the “business”, its about jobs for a few people…. and my post at ISSFA got deleted because I dared to ask why Oxley never called after coming to our chapter meeting… 4 years not a single email.. even after I tracked him down at expo and he said.. I’ll send info next week.. Why not work within ISSFA to change it?? 7 year contract , thats why. I dared to ask what value ISSFA gave to its members… couldn’t answer so you delete the posts.. guess that;s the easy way out.. you can see the results…..ISSFA is a non factor in the industry. If this was a public company the board would of escorted the head guy out long ago. ISSFA is run from the top down, interestingly NKBA is run from the bottom up. The members tell the national what is important what we want them to work on, and they do.. what a concept.. the members have say.
I believe in Jon, I just think hes chasing a train that left the station already.. I wish him much luck and success…
Im still for an association, but I do think we need to take baby steps first, but im in 100%, however I can assist.
al wrote
Tom M wrote Al,
You have to let whatever is going on at ISSFA happen without much comment.
You’re not helping them by speculating.
Making insinuations about someone – even if in a nickname won’t be helping them either.
Tom, respectfully exactly what did I insinuate? I did make some straight out statements, one about Oxley pulling public access to the board because of one person. I asked that before, to the person who was alledgedly the cause, and it wasn’t denied. If that is a wrong statement, given proof, I will retract that oxley pulled the plug on public access to the BB.
Was there ever public access as I have been told, or has it always been restricted to members only?
I’ll look bach through and see if there are any other insinuations.
The ISSFA BB was made private for many reason including the one you are referring to. Most associations have a privat BB for members only. What is the point of paying for membership if it doesn’t get you anything?
Robber Toxley
I’m sorry. This must have been a typo.
even if in a nickname
Or whatever.
Look, I’m sorry to have brought it up.
Exactly the question that was asked , that they deleted.. what is the point of paying if you don’t get anything?
Wags wrote
Exactly the question that was asked , that they deleted.. what is the point of paying if you don’t get anything?
Wags,
No offense, but they do have that right. Plus if you notice the section on the ISSFA site is “Ask a Fabricator”. It is not meant to be for questions about ISSFA.
Respectfully,
I agree they have the right, but I think it shows they really are not interested in building an association, just creating high paying jobs for a few.
Why don’t you guys get a hold of Keith Layton mountops@dnet.net and ask him about some of the stuff you think is happing at ISSFA or is not happing At ISSFA. Why not just go to the horses mouth? Some of what is said is true some is a little off base.Yes I know for many of you helping ISSFA is a dead end job. But my thinking has always been If I didn’t try and the association failed how would I feel? I don’t work for ISSFA because I’m a lap dog for Oxley.In fact Oxley works for me and whoever else is a member. He knows that as well.The real reason I Help ISSFA is for my workers. They love there job. I love knowing that we can give a group of employees a place to work that has some sort of security.But for this Industry to survive we need in my mind make ISSFA work.So people can have jobs.Kurt has a ton of good Ideas but he needs help to make it happen can you help Kurt?Some of you guys are new to the game and quite frankly the only information you might have regarding ISSFA is from those that don’t like it. Are you doing yourself a favor by not checking it out yourself?Jon, with all do respect, you “help ISSFA for your workers and your employees love their job?” This industry will “survive” because of folks like those on FabNet. It will implode because of the “how much money can you give me now” attitude of ISSFA.
Yeah, do yourselves a favor, take a big wad of cash, stand behind a fan and let it blow ISSFA’s way. Get back to me when you get a return on investment.
There are so many stories I could post that would blow your mind Jon. Utter cronyism aint my cup of tea!
Dave I feel ISSFA can help. I want my employees to have work. Whats wrong with that? I also want all of my fellow fabricators to have work. Whats wrong with that?
I just sent in my dues Last week. I also told ISSFA what I want to hasppen. Push SS . I dont care about the classes. We just need to market. Thats where ISSFA can help. Lets see what happens this year.
Jon, what is in the ISSFA business plan for 2008, I’m sure that is already being put together? How do they plan to promote solid surface? I know in Oxley’s (acceptance speech) when he took the job, that he wanted to advance local and international chapters, I have been away for awhile, but I don’t think this is being done.
I respect you and Kurt for what you are trying to do, and I appreciate you guys telling us what is going on over there. You guys are doing this for no pay, and for anyone, anywhere, to bash you guys is bullspit, in other’s words. You guys are our eyes and ears over there, don’t hesitate to keep us informed.
I just think that anytime something is posted from you guys about ISSFA , you shouldn’t have to feel the need to defend it, just tell us the facts.
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