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Andy, It’s eos. I’ve only had this issue with this color and this one particular client. Ive used there products on many other jobs and never had this issue. Ive disscussed this with the folks at EOS and they want me to sent them a piece of this material so they can look at it and hopefully figure it out. In reality the material is never submerged in water for long durations but the problem I have had is standing water under a soap dispensor causing the change in color. Maybe it has somewthing to do with there water. I will mention the water I submerged it in was from there taps.
Posted By Andy Graves on 20 Jul 2010 07:35 PM
I have to ask, what type of material is that? Solid Surface shouldn’t absorb water…should it?Andy:
The ASTM D 570 Standard Practice for the Water Absorption of Plastics puts 1/2″ Corian at .6% and EOS at .03%.
I don’t know how acrylic can absorb water, it’s the aluminum tryhydrate filler.
Corian admits “low moisture absorption” here.
Joe
P.S.:
Help us out here, Lenny.
Jon, I’ve spoken with them about this before and I have just sent the material that is pictured to them so they can look at it and see what the issue is. The first time I had the problem was from a soap dispensor that was left on the counter and was always wet underneath from use and the white mark appeard, it sanded out just fine. The second time this happened someone disconected the water supply from a ref. in and apartment and left the end of the tube on the countertop with a very very slow drip ——drip and the same white mark appeard, this time it took much longer to sand out cuzz it did penetrade about a 1/16″. We’ll see what happens.
Steve,
your pursuit of empirical evidence does you proud.
Do you have any idea how the chemical composition of Eos might vary from other products. Is Eos made in China (ref Lenny’s previous horror stories)?Joe,
is there any Technical Manual you are not familiar with? (and can you therefore answer the question about Eos’ composition?)Posted By Patrick McGrath on 22 Jul 2010 09:58 AM
Joe,
is there any Technical Manual you are not familiar with? (and can you therefore answer the question about Eos’ composition?)Patrick:
Everything to which I linked was easily obtainable on the net. EOS doesn’t give nearly the information as compared to the larger manufacturers.
Rummaging around on the net, I did find this four-year-old gem from Lenny regarding EOS:
“Hi Joe- the reason Dupont never made 3 CM SS is they make acrylic and find it hard to control the exotherm and boil off on 3/4 much less 3 CM. Thats the rumor anyway. Takes a guru like me to do something like that successfully..haha. EOS..yep heard lots of complaints of warp, settling of particles, and residual stress. sheETS allegedly twist aND BEND LIKE A POTATOE CHIP WHEN CUT..ANYBODY ELSE HEARD WHAT iIM BEING TOLD? Geez all of these problems can BE solved. SO whats up with EOS? Let me guess- outsourced to a chinese factory- no US people onsite to show them how to do- or monitor quality. I dunno, what do you all think?”
Joe
Posted By Kowboy on 22 Jul 2010 11:45 AM
Posted By Patrick McGrath on 22 Jul 2010 09:58 AM
Joe,
is there any Technical Manual you are not familiar with? (and can you therefore answer the question about Eos’ composition?)Patrick:
Everything to which I linked was easily obtainable on the net. EOS doesn’t give nearly the information as compared to the larger manufacturers.
Rummaging around on the net, I did find this four-year-old gem from Lenny regarding EOS:
“Hi Joe- the reason Dupont never made 3 CM SS is they make acrylic and find it hard to control the exotherm and boil off on 3/4 much less 3 CM. Thats the rumor anyway. Takes a guru like me to do something like that successfully..haha. EOS..yep heard lots of complaints of warp, settling of particles, and residual stress. sheETS allegedly twist aND BEND LIKE A POTATOE CHIP WHEN CUT..ANYBODY ELSE HEARD WHAT iIM BEING TOLD? Geez all of these problems can BE solved. SO whats up with EOS? Let me guess- outsourced to a chinese factory- no US people onsite to show them how to do- or monitor quality. I dunno, what do you all think?”
Joe
I have never had any of the problems listed in that quote.
SteveI received a call awhile back in reguards to this same customer. She explains she has developed to same white mark on her countertop and I need to come see it. She uses a dish drainer and after removing it this is what I find.
From what I have been told by EOS, is that this is caused by trapping water between the drain tray and the countertop and not allowing the area to dry or from not drying the area after use. After dealing with the issue of the spot caused by the soap dispensor I informed her that after using the sink and using the drain tray to dry the area up after use. By the looks of it she didnt listen.
After 1 hour of sanding I was able to remove the discoloration.
I know I’ve asked this before but has anyone had any discoloration like this that could have been caused from constant contact with water.
Steve:
Sounds like EOS is not coating their ATH with Silane, which would reduce its ability to absorb moisture.
I know solid surface is not meant to be submerged, but a dish thingie shouldn’t be causing spots on tops.
An hour of sanding, that sucks.
Joe
Hi Steve,
I have seen that before. It can come from a number of issues. In layman’s terms what is happening is that a molecule of water attaches (sits on) the ATH molecule and results in the white effect. It becomes a quad hydrate instead of a tri-hydrate. Normally the water has to be very hot (boiling) and trapped between the top and a cup, soap dish or plate to get that severe whitening effect. Even then the effect is generally only readily observable in very dark colors. What concerns me is that in this case the water isn’t boiling, that color is neutral and the effect doesn’t seem to fade over time. In most solid surface even when a dark color is exposed to boiling water trapped between the top and a cup it fades back to the normal color over time.I have seen the cold water whitening effect when the filler is not mixed well with the resin during manufacturing. That can occur from a number of issues and can be easily solved. I have also seen it occur when the manufacturer replaces some of the ATH with a different (cheaper) filler. And there are a myriad of other manufacturing/formulation issues that can exacerbate this problem.
Joes suggestion of manufacturing using Silane treated ATH would certainly help alleviate the problem. The downside is that silane treated ATH is expensive and adds significant cost to the product since ATH is the majority of the formulation. You don’t need silane treated ATH. If the sheet is properly manufactured you shouldn’t get permanent whitening under those conditions.
I am in China now (this time zone is 13 hours ahead of EST). Email me and we can chat about this some more.
Lenny:
I agree that Steve doesn’t need Silane-treated ATH. Steve needs to sell solid surface products that don’t cause profit-draining and reputation-ruining customer callbacks. Had EOS used the more expensive treated ATH, they would have had to charge Steve more for their material, but he wouldn’t be having callbacks and having to explain why the solid surface he sold them doesn’t perform the same as other solid surface on the market. I’m certain he would prefer the latter to the former.
Joe
Joe,
If the sheet was manufactured correctly, Mr Mehan or the customer wouldnt have that problem either. The other materials perform well without Silane Treated ATH.
Posted By Lenny E on 14 Mar 2011 06:55 AM
Joe,If the sheet was manufactured correctly, Mr Mehan or the customer wouldnt have that problem either. The other materials perform well without Silane Treated ATH.
Lenny:
I agree. I just find it irritating when a manufacutrer’s problem gets passed off to a fabricator. EOS telling Steve to tell his customer not to use a dish thingie is like the guy who went to the doctor and says “Doc, it hurts when I do this.” and instead of curing the ailment, the doctor says, “Don’t do that.”
EOS should find this thread embarassing, shoud offer Steve replacement material and labor and promise it will never happen again.
“Eos offers the best of both worlds, offering unmatched long-term value: The natural look of stone plus the easy-to-clean, more water- and stain-resistant advantages of a nonporous, tough solid surface.”
This doesn’t look like “more water resistant” to me but does look like an obvious warranty claim.
I could not find any warning in any of the EOS information against “trapping water between the drain tray and the countertop and not allowing the area to dry or from not drying the area after use.”
Joe
This issue needs to be covered under the EOS warranty. Kind of embarrassing for the solid surface industry.
My posting this issue was to find out if anyone has had any similier issues like this one or if this is something that when the conditions are JUST RIGHT are more likely to happen. When something strange or unusual like this happens I would like to find out why, by NOT jumping to conclusions. I’ve spent time trying to replicate this issue and have done some experimention with samples and am having them looked at currently.
I will also say that EOS has told me they would treat this as a warrenty issue.
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