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Posts
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Wags,
You are on the mark as far as ISSFA goes. As much as I respect Jon and a few others that are still trying to get that dead horse to stand up, it ain’t happening with present leadership, and I doubt that the BOD has the cajones to pay off the contract that they gifted him.
Andy and Mory both said it well months ago, and I finially saw the wisdom in their words. Forget about ISSFA. The money is gone, Oxley will get most of what they have in the end. That is all the answer there is.
Save the money till this fall, pledge it toward the professional testing if you are feeling generous. We have $800 so far.
Al, maybe I missed where a pledge was needed for this test. Call me in the AM and let me know how we can help.
Dave
Advertising and promoting an industry are two different things.
Yes, but it certainly gets product info out there. It certainly gets info about their segment of the industry to the public, and that’s promotion. My advertising probably helps my competition to some extent. That’s business.
This whole industry doesn’t have enough money to buy enought advertising to establish SS as a great product.
Well then, how much money does DuPont, LG, Samsung and Mitsubishi have in their pockets amongst the lint to kick in? They certainly have enough money to buy that ad space demanded of them by the HDLowe’s of the world. How many articles for the kitchen industry are written by cabinet or other people involved in the industry outside of NKBA employees?
The NKBA works very hard to build a brand of the CKD’s, this is what ISSFA should be doing.
Yep. But as Al said, they aren’t getting it done. So what’s left? Are you realy saying that it’s all up to them? This industry lives or dies on whether iSSFA gets it’s butt in gear? We’re doomed. What did we do before ISSFA? There was pretty good public awareness out there prior to 1996.
Perhaps not its him personally, I don’t know, but he is the head guy so the blame has to stop somewhere.
No, I think you have it right. It’s pretty much him. He deserves it.
They have failed. They may rise again, under new leadership, but for now, that train ain’t in the station no more. So what’s next? I can wait till Norm, Jon, Seth, and the like rebuld the place, and I will support them doing it. But here is here now, not tomorrow.
They aren’t the only way to get the word out. So, as Al alluded: who will step up to the plate?
Andy,
We both know each other enough that neither needs to question each other, yet we do have to answer posts like mine.
For the record, what Andy has done so far is the only way it could be done. Let no one ever think that I am second guessing Andy’s work.
Let’s look at what SFA is doing. Free site to get the numbers, but you pay to get to see the dark room and they push the SFA members on just about every post. They pitch in and some time help out consumers when one of them gets screwed over, usually get a SFA member over to look at the work in question and offer advice on what is industry standard.
Good lord, go to the two main stone sites. You will find thousands of customer complaints on stone tops on both sites, sometimes some straight shooting on the quality of the work, sometimes ten to twenty guys posting that it isn’t that bad and the customer got what she deserved for going cheap. Find me one site with that many solid surface horror stories. Still these guys kick our asses. They are more motivated I guess.
So, if i want to see the dark room over at SFA, I pony up the cash. A little more than a decent edge profile bit for the inside info on the trade. It would be stupid not to join, so I will in a month or so. Donate $250 so they can continue to kick our asses on PR and studies.
The point that Andy brings up is the tough one. As a group that sells all the top tier products, are we unable to tell the truth about the qualities of them or not? Would we not have the most unbiased arguement in the fight?
This subject keeps coming up over and over again. ISSFA bad, but let’s not rush into anything. Bottom line is that last August I got a place where I could get involved in national solid surface politics and projects, and it is stronger but still disorganized.
We can not even decide if solid surface is worth defending. Someone tell me how to increase market share without educating customers and the media. Someone tell me how to do that without participation of more than a dozen guys.
Tom
Point is, you don’t promote the industry by paying for ads. You do it with free publicity. A trade organization can get that, a manufacturer can’t. Trust me not many mfg or distributors are getting rich selling SS anymore. How did Hi Macs gain market share? By lowering pricing, what did everyone else do, lowered theres. Thats just how it is. Think about it, I paid $600 a sheet for white Corian 20 years ago.. today white is $200.. and the costs are higher..
NKBA has about 40,000 paying members. True its a bigger pie to start with, but ISSFA is not growing, there must be a reason.
If fabnet becomes the voice of the industry then they will have the clout to get free publicity. Most newspapers are begging for articles to publish.
Im almost at the end of my working days, so it will effect me little what happens, but I believe in Solid Surface and I think its our duty to educate the public. They get so mislead by these articles saying more bacteria was killed on Stone then on Stainless.. well duh.. must be alot more to start with.. most don’t look past, Granite is more sanitary.. and our industry assocation stays quiet. And yes Al, that is my on the other sites.. promoting SS. as always.
Im about written out on this subject. Ive said what I feel needs to be said. Al is right in his comments about how I have not stepped forward, I’ll try to do better.
I wish the industry well..
Dave,
One of the most important lessons I ever learned is to look for what I did wrong first in any situation. Sure it feels good and is faster to blame others for mistakes, but if I did something wrong, I can change the outcome next time.
Admiting blame gives me control………..
I like being wrong…….
What would help more than anything else is finding out what I need to do to get even that 10% defending solid surface. I do know that anytime a nail sticks up, something will pound it down, so just getting visible and active is going to get a certain percentage pissed off at me for what ever reason. Think back to when you first met a good friend, how you felt, that person was so cool or interesting. Why? You don’t know anything about them at first, time you learn all their bad qualities, the good ones have paid the dues so to speak. On a forum like this, I don’t get that grace, people like or dislike right away. They offer to pitch in, or not.
I would not be offended if someone emailed constructive criticizm as long as they offered a way to do it better and was willing to help effect changes.
You may have pointed out something here. If one of the most prolific posters wasn’t aware that we are going to need some bucks to pay for the fall testing, both myself and Andy have some work to do. Count em guys, June, July, August, and we have to be ready.
Andy, if this is going to be done, and if we want wide support not only in the financing, but in the clout needed to get this in Surface Fabrication, or any other magazine, we will need numbers behind us. Nothing says that better than those who actually spent a bit of cash in supporting the effort. Can we put something out in the public section, asking for contributions and maybe a graph or chart showing progress? Maybe listing the donors so far?
Yeah, money will have to be kept track of. Do it on paypal, anyone can send money easily, it is web based so the books can be watched by three or four people easily from the old easy chair while watching T.V., copy and paste expenditures and put them in the members section for all to see. Make one person responsible for spending, rotate it every six months for safety.
It is going to happen, a new association of some kind. We can do it or wait for someone else to do it and have no control.
So 999 is present? On Hgtv.com ? I thought I recognized something. I sent a private email asking who that was, curious.
If I am right, everybody that reads this post needs to learn from this. One little thread on one site had some people spreading ignorance and outright lies. Three posters, myself, DL and T999 started posting back. One or two posters lashed back, questioning motives, talking about salesmen spamming their product. They got hammered down by DL and T999, and shut up quick. Did we convince the person who started the thread, maybe or not, but hundreds of others read it. Hgtv.com shut down the thread when it got to 1,000 views, before I could answer the attacks on my advice, but there were two team mates that took care of business. Thanks to both of you. Thanks to your support, I post on there and people listen as long as I make sense. Fair enough, but won’t happen without support.
Three people spent an hour or two and made a thousand impressions in a week or two. One one small site on one small thread.
Wags, I have been guilty of selling solid surface for six years without helping out. I need to do better as well. Andy gave me a place to work and I am trying to help out in anyway I can.
All, there is tons of research needed. Anyone interested, go back to the bacteria test thread, near the end where I posted a bunch of stuff that needs ran down. There is so much out there just waiting to be picked up. Here is a good example:
A long time rep told me about a lawsuit, supposedly back east, near or in Pennsylvania, about a granite countertop being found responsible for sickening a woman, radon gas or something. Supposedly the woman recieved a settlement. Urban myth? True? We need to find out.
Back to ISSFA. If they have folded quartz into their sphere of influence, they can not be “The” solid surface association anymore. A solid surface association must have only one product, solid surface, to champion. If Lenny can make us some quartz that we can do invisible seams, repair, and cove, then we can talk about quartz being solid surface.
Andy, this radical new effort you think we need is Fabnet. It is working with one percent. Think of what we can do with ten percent……
Andy, although the inner workings of The Fabricator Network are none of my concern, as the entity is wholly owned by you. I think this site is great, I am just wondering what your long range plans are?
There are more than a few advertisers on here, that reach more than just the ten percent that participate. Is there somewhere this whole thing is going, or is it going to stay status quo?
I left ISSFA for several reasons, one was probably more about the comraderie with all the folks I met through ISSFA that came over here. Another one was that I truly thought this was going to become an association that would right all the wrongs, and become a truly spectacular association.
Honestly, whatever you choose to do is your business, I am somewhat curious though as to the direction, if any, you plan on going with this.
You have my whole hearted support in whatever you decide.
Norm,
I can’t speak for Andy, have no clue to what he will do. What I can comment on is the inevitablity of this happening whether Andy wants it or not.
Think back on your roofing business, if I remember correctly and it was you that formerly had one. At some point, you face growth or stagnate. Need that new forlift, or salesperson just to keep up, grow or die. Is it easy? All of us shop owners and those in management of shops know better. Grow or die, or grow uncontrollably and still die, but some grow and stay profitable.
Those few of us that were fortunate enough to be able to help out at the Surfaces show saw the support that Fabnet got from almost every exibitor there. No one had as many give aways, thanks to the advertisers on Fabnet. That says so much, them giving product and services to help build membership. Those that haven’t or couldn’t join are probally some of the unregistered visitors that outnumber us so much on this site. Fabnet matters, it has more members than ISSFA ever laid claim to, it is grass roots. It survived a major test after the Surfaces show that many do not know about, one that I won’t bring up except to say it happened, and it is still Fabnet and not a corporate asset.
People complain about organizations, wanting democracy and accountability, but our country survived and thrived and will continue to do so only because it has been a republic, not a democracy. Is it still? Debatable at best, but regardless, if we survive it will be only as a republic. A republic is based on response to the masses but lead by the most responsible. George Washington was the perfect first president because he didn’t want the job. He was pressed into it by others and by his own sense of responsibility.
Andy is riding a tiger. There are as many wanting him to fail as there are wanting him to suceed. Both will watch, read, and participate on this forum. At some point, an association will form. I’ve got the first $400 in dues, if that is what is needed. I would suggest $250 since that is what SFA is getting, and till a need is proven, that should be enough. Andy is at the point that many of us have been in, needing to turn loose and hire a shop foreman, or trust the new guy with the company truck instead of running errands himself. He will find himself pushed off the shop floor and onto the sales floor.
I’m just saying….
Wags,
Good call, we’re going to start talking past each other soon. Let me sum up with this:
I don’t disagree with you about the need for an association, but however you slice it, there won’t be an NKBA association coming out of the solid surface industry. Let’s also not forget that they changed their tune about selling against certain entities once those entities started priming the pump. Kind of ISSFA and Estone, if you ask me.
Watching CTDC 117 grow as the years went on, I started wondering if solid surface really was the material it seemed. If it’s so great, why keep adding things you can’t do while fabricating? Same with the sinks. Run cold water while pouring hot water. Got it. The last straw was when the manufacturers bailed out on the fabricators and put all the chits in the Home Center basket. Short-term gain, but long-term damage. Truth is, they’re just getting ready to move on when the time is right. It’s not the advertising (or lack thereof), it’s apathy. They share a good deal of this blame, and we’re not going to get any help of any size, anytime soon. It’s up to us.
But we have Al. That might just be enough.
Dave,
I do it because it is in my best interest, same as you. Not knocking you at all, just saying that you are both smart for doing it as well as trustworthy because of why you are helping out so much.
Why else did I order my stone tools from you? I can get stuff cheaper somewhere else, but spending my cash with Fed Saw is in my best interest.
Call it energy and commitment or call me selfish, all the same to me. Thanks for the kind words, though.
You da man….. Gotta get an order into you tomorrow night, got to do a damned granite top next week.
Oh, got all the stuff today. Guys, I ordered what I needed in the way of grinders, polishers, tooling and what from Dave on Monday, got some of it on Wensday (from Canada no less?) and the rest today.
Tom,
All regular readers know that when the two of us reply that, like you and Wags, we are close to talking past each other. Both of us are pretty much on the same page due to inevitablity, facts and personality, with the first two being foremost. Joe and I didn’t get along because of personality, we were together on the first two if we keep the subject strictly on solid surface.
Okay, valid point about solid surface not leading a countertop association, but is that what the need exists for or does the need exist for a solid surface association? Both might be needed, but can PETA and the Cattlemens association get along? Factions exist even in MIA and SFA, sealer sealers versus those who say sealing stone shows weakness in the product, low price hacks versus the higer quality shops, china blanks fabricators versus slab fabricators. They will have to agree to what they can agree on and pass on the rest.
I personally can see a need for a countertop association for one thing, marketing clout with the media. Past that, the base would be too fractured, kind of like the Democratic party. So a countertop association would serve a narrow need and it would be worth joining, but it will have factions and what gets done is what gets done.
There must be a new solid surface association, there will be one. Boiling water? Avonite says they fixed that with the Shock sinks from Germany, if true, everyone can fix it or have to admit is just about selling cheaper.
Blue or Orange? Fabnet can fix that if it becomes the association. I would have no problem dropping any company that chose to sell cheaper sheet goods to fabricators serving big box stores unless it was on pure volume of business. Offer me the same discount, same terms, ad program, support and warantty , we will see who gains market share and who loses.
You know as well as I do that people buy what brand the fabricator recommends. That is our power.
Where the home centers gain the attention of brands is when they set a low price, or a standard markup on the job. Customer fabricators like us know to charge more for higher priced sheets because of perceived value of the product. I tell every rep that asks to keep better colors coming, damn the cost, just make them nice and I can sell them. I sell more $600 sheets than $300 sheets, and have sold exactly one strip of white in seven years or so.
We have Tom, as well. Your point of the brands watering down the warranty is excellent. Again proving the need for an association coming together and telling the brands that this is the minumum standard, we will hold fabricators to it if you can make it good enough to last under those conditions. Isn’t that what the first project was about, the warrantee standards chart? Making them look at how their material looks compared to others?
Until we form an association, we have Fabnet. They are not neccesarily destined to be one and the same, one could be the association and the other could be the meeting spot. The local coffee shop where all the locals meet. I can see benefits in doing it that way, both need each other to survive, so it is in boths intererst to play fair and stay out of each others business.
Al aint enough, we need 4,999 more shop owners and every last employee they have. All doing what little they can, when they can.
I’ll tell you what Al, I’m pretty hard on the guy, but I have to say Oxley saw this market coming EXACTLY right. I know that it is a standard predictable market, and it was entering a predictable marketing phase (commodity) but he got the time right, and it happened pretty much as he said. So why isn’t he, or any other guy with skin in the game, working on how to swing the cycle back up. We need to put the camera into the digital phone.
..but can PETA and the Cattlemens association get along?
No, but thanks for making me spit water at the thought. That was a good one.
…low price hacks versus the higher quality shops, china blanks fabricators versus slab fabricators.
You know, maybe we’re fighting the wrong battle. Maybe quality should band against fly-by-nights. Custom and caring versus cost and, well, cost is about it. Not ss versus stone.
Either way, I’m glad we’re on the same team.
and what happened to this font?
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