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Posts
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Jon
While I respect you and your knowledge and dedication to the industry, I can not support any association that has to hide, delete questions and refuses to discuss problems. ISSFA is, as far as I am concerned, a non enitity. I will also promote the Fabricator Network and will discuss with Andy the possiblity of starting local chapters, something Oxley has refused to do since the day he came to ISSFA. ISSFA provides nothing you can’t get many other places at much less cost. They have failed to do the one thing that only a trade association can do, promote the industry. Oxley is more concerned putting programs together he can charge for, than give real value to the fabricators he is suppose to work for.
I have tried to get him to call me for 3- 4 years, since I dropped him off at the airport after having him attend our local chapter meeting. I called, E mailed him, stopped by the office in Henderson and cornered him at shows, he has always promised to call me but refuses to. Now he has posts deleted when the question is asked, what is the value of ISSFA to me as a distributor and to the fabricator members. Sadly he can’t answer it, because their is no value, it is merely a means to a high paying job for a few people.
I have nothing personally against anyone associated with ISSFA, its just an irrelevant association, how sad for those of us in the industry.
wags999@aol.com 623-707-3615 I have nothing to hide.
Wags, a couple of points, if I may:
1. Oxley has asked me about starting local chapters back up, so he seems open to the idea, at the very least. I think, because it was in the midst of the “V” imbroglio, it might have been damage control more than anything else, but in fairness I wanted to get that out.
2. Regarding market promotion – they are guilty as charged, in my opinion, but I swear I’m sick of hearing that it’s all ISSFA’s fault. They are not the only entity that should be doing promotion of solid surface. The manufacturers especially, the distributors and the fabricators all have a stake in market promotion. The general non-promotion of this entire freakin’ industry is disgraceful. Is that why the manufacturers signed on to ISSFA? to abrogate their responsibilities to the market? I used to participate in Yellow Pages advertising where we had a special Corian ad, sponsered by the distributors, and we all helped out to get our names in the column. Worked pretty good. What happened?
3. If ISSFA is deleting comments merely because they are critical of ISSFA I’d like to know about it. I have been falling further away from them lately, and, aside from Jon, may be one of the last defenders they have here on any regular basis. If you wouldn’t mind dropping me a quick note, I can be emailed at info”at”mathertops.com. I would appreciate it.
Tom
Well Tom, Ive been waiting 3-4 years for his return call about chapters. We had, according to Oxley, the most active chapter in the country. Something two of us stared with zero help from ISSFA.
And no mfg or distributor can speak for an industry, if thats not one of the main purposes for a trade association what is ? And, not to defend mfg but you can’t have cheap prices and more advertising doesn’t work that way. Do you think if Corian or Avonite or whomever wrote a piece for a newspaper it would have a snowballs chance in…**ll of getting published? Course not it would be considered crass self promotion, but the same article written by a trade association could and would get published. The marble institue sure seems to get its share of ink. Why are mfg bailing out of ISSFA ? Ask them, if they are honest they will tell you.
As far as posts being deleted because they don’t like the content, it sure was. I asked… no begged to please, tell me what I get for my $400.. tell me what a fabricator gets for its $400….Joe posted looking for a discontinued Corian sink.. that too was deleted.. Guess were not part of the “Club”.. good I can still look myself in the mirror.. can he?
…not to defend mfg but you can’t have cheap prices and more advertising doesn’t work that way.
Wags, I never asked any manufacturer to cheapen the price and stuff the marketting. That was a manufacturers decision, and theirs alone. The pandering to Home Centers and converters and cheap fabricators is what’s driving it. Not my fault, not ISSFA’s fault. I had a rep tell me, in the micro-management 90’s that I’m spending too much time finish sanding commercial bowls. We were told to buy V-groovers so we could increase volume and make the dough with cheaper pricing. The manufacturers told us that. If they can’t afford to market their product, they are part of the problem.
I’m not removing any blame from ISSFA, they deserve what they’re getting. But the idea that a manufacturer can’t promote the industry through advertising is silly. They promote what’s good about their product, they are promoting the industry. Same with fabricators. If I advertise how good ss is, am I not saying something beneficial for the whole industry? If the manufacturers want to promote through cost-based outfits as their primary market focus, then that’s the perception the folks are gonna get from the product. It hurts me, and it hurts the whole industry. We are all paying that price.
One last thought about this whole price nonsense: I have said it, and so have you. This is a high end product. It should be treated that way. All we hear about is how much cheaper we can make this or that. Lower the splash and drop the edge to save material. What’s up with that? It’s like buying a Lexus and getting charged extra if you want air conditioning.
I can’t believe Joe asked about a sink and his post was deleted. Did something else happen, or was it in the wrong place? If not, that’s a sad story, and says an awful lot about what goes on over there. I posted for the first time in months. It even hates my firefox browser.
Jon,
I just replied to an email you sent and it was rejected. Is there an alternative email addy you can shoot at me?
Thanks.
tom
Ok, there are alot of people that are not content (to say the least) with ISSFA as THE solid surface organization. Andy, from what I understand (correct me if I am wrong) does not want to take The Fabricator Network any further, (one of the reasons Mory is gone, if anyone noticed). I understand it takes alot of people to run an organization, Andy and I have talked about this before.
Everyone says they will help, but in the end they don’t, so either stop complaining or do something about it. I’ll help in any way I can.
Wags, Tom,
As a newcomer to all of this, not quite a year yet since I got involved, I am going to have a different perspective than you guys that have been living and breathing this stuff for decades. Not that my opinion is right or wrong, just different.
Working on that response to Consumer Reports last year and critiqueing the Snyder study lately seems to get to me after a few hours. Like what the hell, this is so basic, not rocket science, why wasn’t this done in 1999 when it came out? Sure, ISSFA had the job, but when they didn’t step up, where were the parents? Drunken teen age party going on, no adults in sight. Okay, Fabnet is here, things will get better, right?
So what, six months ago Andy started the Fabnet Community Projects? How many people participate? One percent of our registered members have supported the bacteria project with time, money or furnishing samples. The leadership is there, a renouned industry consultant is guiding the effort, Fabnet is behind it, so where are the other 99% of the registered members?
I’ve often told Andy that this site is valuable to visitors and members alike, yet it is a free ride. The stone trades have kicked our asses for years, have multiple lobby groups, magazines that support THEIR trade and no other, they have money to pay for what ever test results that make em look good. I have no idea what Marble Institute charges, but SFA charges a measly $250.00 to join.
Do the math, 988 members x $250.00= $247,000 potential dues that could be spent toward advertising, testing, publishing, having a full time person on the internet challenging junk studies pushed by the stone lobby groups, just about a million ideas that could help our trade.
At least Jon is still in there swinging. He hasn’t given up, still feels responsible to himself and for himself, and If I am correct, holds down a job while doing so. Jon obviously loves the trade, yet we have hundreds of shop OWNERS that don’t put out 1 thousandth of the effort that Jon does to drag this trade back into the limelight.
Ever hear the old saying, ” Don’t worry about getting what you want, worry about getting what you deserve.” As a trade, we deserve to lose market share because apathy rules our trade. Right here, on this forum are 978 members that either feel someone else will do the work or the work isn’t worth doing. I aint bitching, will keep on working with the ten or twelve members that give a damn, doing what I can.
So, how about hearing from the 99% of you guys that haven’t pitched in. Why?
Advertising and promoting an industry are two different things. This whole industry doesn’t have enough money to buy enought advertising to establish SS as a great product. That is done through articles in the home and garden sections of 1000’s of newspapers. And articles in SIP (Special Issue Publications) such as Better home and garden Kitchen and Bath magazine. The NKBA works very hard to build a brand of the CKD’s, this is what ISSFA should be doing. This is not rocket science, its the basic reason for a trade associations existance. Oxley has had what, 3 – 4 years and not a single article has been written? Not a single response to all the self serving “tests” that granite has published? Perhaps not its him personally, I don’t know, but he is the head guy so the blame has to stop somewhere.
Also this is not the first time I have said all these same things in public. You would think at some point he would sent an email, make a phone call or catch me at a show. He has chosen to hide. What does that say? To me it says, I don’t care. I know im only one person, just a smuck trying to make a living, but I promote this industry daily and those that know me know that to be true. I have given countless box lunch and learns for Architechs etc.. But im one lone voice.. ISSFA is suppose to represent our collective voice… sadly.. that voice is silent. It is spend promoting programs they can charge for. Those are great also, but, I ask once more, what do I get for my $400? I rather put that toward an Architectural show.
I asked him, tell me what I get from ISSFA I can’t get elsewhere, I’ll write the check today…. im still waiting.
Al
Your post is well said. Tell me what you need and I’ll kick in. But your right, ISSFA for years has done little. At least in the begining they put on a show, then they sold that and spent the money, or most of the money. They don’t run the show, don’t run the magazine, what do they do? That’s my point. How many kicked in $400, or $1000 which is what distributors cost and Mfg were thousands more than that. Where did that money go? Good question. Be interesting to have some answers.
Wags,
So why haven’t you been active on our community projects? What is lacking? The google page was put up, asking for people to forward information, pile it up in one place so we can all find it. Want to guess how many people sent in stuff?
I can’t think of a damned one that asked to be put on the list, one or two sent some stuff via email that I put on it. Then Dave got us a couple of websites registered. Name one person that has stepped up and actually sent Dave something.
So, two efforts that have zero participation. So you have done some marketing to architects, I have done a few dozen home and garden shows and promoted solid surface. That is what my job is, selling what I fabricate, so that doesn’t count does it.
Forget ISSFA, why are you not participating where you can?
Be blunt if you think what we are trying to do isn’t worth it or is going to fail. Constructive critcizm is better than nothing.
There is a dirty dozen, as we are called. We are still waiting too…….
Norm,
I am a little confused about what you are saying. Are you saying that Mory doesn’t participate on the forum because I supposedly don’t want to take the Fabricator Network any further?
Al wrote,
I’ve often told Andy that this site is valuable to visitors and members alike, yet it is a free ride. The stone trades have kicked our asses for years, have multiple lobby groups, magazines that support THEIR trade and no other, they have money to pay for what ever test results that make em look good. I have no idea what Marble Institute charges, but SFA charges a measly $250.00 to join.
Numbers are key aspect of any trade association. Sure we could charge for membership, but would all join? Probably Not. If you talk with people outside the industry for support and you only have 250 members, they won’t give you the time of day. The basic answer is, “call me when you grow”. How do you grow when there is really only about 5,000 countertop companies in the nation. ISSFA has had 10 years to grow membership they just haven’t succedded.
Our industry needs a radically different approach to spearhead the growth of our market. Also remember that most business owners sell all the top tier products. They would never support a project that bad mouthed something they sold.
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