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epoxy is typically more expensive, and more often than not, is used in liquid form.
there are some expensive premium hybrid resins out there, but they are what they are, resin.
the biggest problem in failures has come from people who are unaware of the differences and choose to use resin because its either cheaper or easier to work with.
we use resin to laminate our edges, unless its going outside. if it goes outside with use liquid epoxy. you can get epoxy (aka A/B) in knife grade form, usually around $45 for a quart kit, while a quart of resin is $10-$15
I didnt come here to bash Than, and I have no doubt Than is capable of producing a quality, long lasting top using poly. the problem is not everyone will understand or know the difference. If anything, it should be explained in the video.
the videos are great.
like I said, education is key and it is lacking in our industry.
Than you should check out the StoneFabricatorsAlliance.com site. You belong there (its a compliment)
For those who are unaware, Cameron won the 2009 Stone Fabricatior Alliance Educator of the Year Award. He is of course too modest to say, but I have no problem saying it for him.
He is also very knowlegeable and generous with his time, especially at the SFA Workshops. If you get a chance to take notes from the Camminator, I suggest you do it, as I have been so fortunate.
Cam:
Good to see you here.
Joe
Cameron, I have enjoyed the discussion and I think that in the debate there are answers to questions that have both been on peoples minds and on the board.
The definition of a resin as given by Chemsult which is an adhesive consulting company is as follows:
“Resin is a natural or synthetic compound which begins in a highly viscous state and hardens with treatment. Typically, resin is soluable in alcohol, but not water.”
They are both resin. I really thought you might enjoy seeing where the adhesives really fail.
Just as a side note. I never use polyester for laminating granite. I’m sure that it is just a function of how I was raised.:) When I was a kid working in the early 80’s for a great guy in Portland, OR, polyester was for the softer material and it was NEVER acceptable to use anything but epoxy on granite. We did a lot of laminating then. This was back when everything was a laminated 2cm.
We see things from a different perspective, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.
we are in a unique market. we still use 2cm and laminate with poly, with 0 failures. We are meticulous in our prep, which is a big deal.
you on the other hand say laminating with poly isn’ the greatest idea, yet you rod with poly.
this is a simple case of people doing things differently to achieve the same results. no harm in that.
this brings me back to my point. not everyone is capable of understanding the little details that are necessary to successfully execute a job. so when they watch a well put together video of someone using poly, they will run off and use poly, which I dont think is the best scenario.
thats all im saying
Well, in the laminate world you can spray on contact adhesive, brush it on, or trowel it on. Circumstances and exposure usually determine what is used. Most fabricators know this.
What most fabricators don’t know is that you can also use Pva, liquid urea, resourcinol or many other types of adhesive. It usually requires other equipment, such as a press, and that’s why others don’t usually know or use these other glues. Many times these adhesives result in far superior bonding and allow more longevity to the finished product.
Does that fabricator care about something he doesn’t even know? I doubt it. Does his customer get angry because he is not using something that might give her a better product? Nope. As long as he makes a product that will last as long as it is expected to, and perform as well as it should, for the dollars quoted there should be no complaints. It doesn’t mean that somewhere someone isn’t making a better top.
There’s a parallel in here somewhere, but I’m too much of an idiot to figure it out. G’night all.
Than is within current standards in the use of Poly:
from DSDM Version VII
14.5 Rodding. A commonly seen method
of countertop reinforcement is the technique
referred to as “rodding.” Rodding is beneficial
to narrow strips of stone material, such as
those in front or behind sink or cook top
cutouts. This technique requires a shallow
kerf in the underside of the stone slab. The
kerf is then closely fitted with a metal or
fiberglass rod, which is then fully embedded
in epoxy or polyester resin. The rod, having
greater tensile strength than the stone, helps
prevent concave flexure of the stone surface.
Closely matching the rod size to the kerf size
and careful preparation of the rod, including
cleaning or abrading the bonding surface, are
required to get the maximum benefit from
this technique. A strip of fiberglass mesh
backing is often adhered over the rodded
region for additional reinforcement.Cameron is also correct, this chapter is being revised.
Cameron is correct. Poly is not for rodding – it can and has been used in a pinch but epoxy is best to encapsulate a rod in. Epoxy cures slower which gives it more time to sink into the stone for a better bond. As an engineer I know the % difference of shrinkage is actually huge when you stop to think that stone does not shrink. If the bonding material shrinks too much and the rod slot is too deep the stone will actually crack. That is why shrinkage is so important.
As a past fabricator and current installer and restoration guy I have seen rods rust and break stone – not mine either but I have seen others. If poly is used it seems to last about 10 years before the moisture starts to rust a rod if it is going to.
Cam, you are wasting your time trying to warn people here of possible issues of NSS’s videos. Stop beating your head on a stone wall, Bud. Most here do not know the difference being from the solid surface side of things and NSS just doesn’t seen to let anything sink in. You just have to let them go about their own business and learn bad habits. Eventually some day they will learn the hard way and listen to reason.
Posted By Topshop on 21 Dec 2010 04:49 PM
Cam, you are wasting your time trying to warn people here of possible issues of NSS’s videos. Stop beating your head on a stone wall, Bud. Most here do not know the difference being from the solid surface side of things and NSS just doesn’t seen to let anything sink in. You just have to let them go about their own business and learn bad habits. Eventually some day they will learn the hard way and listen to reason.
Why would Cam be wasting his time? I have been doing countertops for over 25 years and never stop learning new things.
Trial and error are typically how things are learned in our industry. We used to super glue oak into the edge of a countertop. Over time it would fail. Lesson learned.Sharing ideas is what makes all countertops better and debate is part of the process.Andy,
The whole idea of sharing info and making video’s is to help others to not learn the hard way. Why document your mistakes and lead others into learning them too? My comments have been to help others know what not to do in the videos which could easily turn into a bad learning experience. I will be happy to share info with those who want to ask for it. Trust me I learn something from every class I teach. Basic nono’s are not debateable(sp?).
Topshop I’ve learned allot from this thread. I don’t see the waste of time. You make it sound like SS guys don’t like stone peeps. Where pretty cool over here .
I thought adding coffee beans to an inlay was impossible until Gene did it. He proved that it could be done. I would have never suggested anyone do it before.
Everything is debatable and rightfully so. Remember when the earth was flat?
I don’t think that SS guys dislike stone guys other than natural competition. I actually feel that by buying into NSS’s bull you are being gullable. I feel that ES manufacturers hate stone guys by the way they spend millions of $ on negative ad campaigns (IE the buildclean group). Either way I hate to see anyone led down an expensive wrong path the way I was when I got into the stone business. I wasted tens of thousands of $ by listening to the wrong ingnorant type people and copying the wrong methods of these people. I only speak up to help reduce the learning curve I fought when I started. That is the reason why I started to help teach classes – I personally have made little to no money from the class I have been helping teach for 5 years.
Maybe this will help you understand – with my background as a manufacturing engineer I have extensive training in JIT manufacturing and Keizan which taught me to closely analyze peoples movements in daily tasks. Watching a video of someone wasting motion and materials is what I have been trained to do and eliminate. I have also been trained to basicly choriograph peoples motions to be efficient. That is what makes me a good teacher of things like top polishing. I watch my students and correct their wrong motions to make them efficient throught coaching. That is why the vidoes I have seen make me angry and I have to speak my mind against them.
Debate is one thing – just plain stupid and wasteful is another. Plus debate only brings in the lawyers. I hate the “devils advocate” types.
Tom,
sweeeeet. thanks for the flashback to being a teen….uhmmmmmmm….sweeetttt….
net/net. things like top polishing are not easy. it is a lot lot harder than refinishing a corian top. Much more risk to reward also. It is much more an art than a science. BUT, I say that knowing that at some point it is a science.
It is interacting with fixed variables (however numerous) and looking for an expected outcome.
All in all, if you have the space, and a guy that can teach your guys, you should bring it in house. Push the stones that fit you, overcharge for those that don’t. sell service, as you already do…
Keizan teaches people how to perform experiments on their work using the scientific method and how to learn to spot and eliminate waste in business processes. In all, the process suggests a humanized approach to workers and to increasing productivity: “The idea is to nurture the company’s human resources as much as it is to praise and encourage participation.”
I thought the video was a good scientific experiment. I finished one side using only the buff pad and showed the results. Remember — it didn’t look good. Then, using this keizan theory implementing the scientific method and experimentation I used the felt wheel and aluminum oxide and viola! Way better.
You know TopShop, I just heard on the radio this morning that cyberbullying is more detrimental than the real thing.:)
This is where I type a positive affirmation for myself.
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