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Posts
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Posted By nssthan on 15 Dec 2010 09:44 PM
Because I haven’t been banned AND compared to Kowboy (unfairly so)…
I think this post perfectly illustrates why you were compared to Joe.
..So the next question would be “Can you use too much water?” Inside someone’s house — yep. In the shop –nope.
…The reason for working this final stage to dry is to allow the compound to make contact with the surface where the water acts as both a lubricant and a barrier
I may be wrong but don’t these two sentences contradict each other?
You were not paying attention. The first sentence was using the diamond abrasives and the second was while using a polishing compound.
If your motivation is just to disagree do it in a private message so your intentions can more clear.
You need lots of water for edge polishing to keep from burning the crystals of the stone with too much heat – the PSI is higher for the area the pad is in contact with the stone. When top polishing you need less water because of more sq. area or PSI. With more area the PSI is lower so less water helps you compensate to build the heat. Like NSS said before, Yes you can use more water in the lower grits but who needs the mess in a home.
One of my main concerns is the fact that you are running th machine before the pad is in contact with the stone. This leads to stray scratches and dig spots like you had off the first grit in the video you had to fix. More stray scratches or inconsistant scratch pattern will bite you later in the process or create more work for yourself to fix them. This is a major reason the polish did not come up from the diamonds alone. Stones like that should not need even a final buff pad if polished correctly with diamonds. This is one of the biggest habits I have to break students of at the class.
So simply tell people that you fire up the grinder after putting the polishing head on the material. That way you don’t gouge the stone with the leading edge.
This is not what happened in the video though. They were at the very edge and I didn’t work the next grit far enough. Furthermore, if that were the reason that the buff alone didn’t do as good of a job it wouldn’t have been uniform.
After all this and your big objection was to the bad habit bad habit of turning the grinder on first. And I had to deal with being called a hillbilly. You said this was an embarrassment. This was a how not to etc..
Correct a good example of how not to do it. The video demonstrates methods that will lead newbies down the wrong path.
Posted By Jeff Lebowski on 13 Dec 2010 10:14 PM
Wow! I joined this forum to “learn” about different methodologies and solutions to top polishing. So far, I have seen two or three practices to reach that goal and a bunch of in-fighting amongst forum members. Is this an educational forum of industry techniques or just a place for “unprofessional” professionals to bash one another’s techniques? No wonder IC’s have a bad rep. All you do is rip each one another over petty, unregulated methods. How about making the forum a little more constructive and sharing various techniques from different levels of expertise? If you have insight into Top Polishing seams, please share. If you want to bash someone for not wearing ear plugs…assume the position of Ned Beatty in the 1972 film ‘Deliverance’. Let’s share professional insight, please.Jeff:
Welcome to the fabnet.
To answer your question, the fabnet is undoubtedly an entertainment and educational forum for industry professionals.
I must take issue with your characterizing our discussion of safety and efficient top polishing methods as “petty” and “unregulated”. When I see unsafe practices on this board, especially as portrayed in a video, I will call it out publicly. It is my “professional insight.” If it seems inadvertent, I may contact a poster through a private messsage. Either way, I have a moral obligation to speak out. I have no choice. If this earns me the wrath of fellow posters or a boot off the board, I’m fine with either.The protection of fabricator’s eyes, ears and lungs is not “petty”.
To describe stone fabrication as “unregulated” is simply ignorant. But don’t believe me, ask someone who’s had an OSHA shop inspection if stone fabrication is “unregulated” or not.
We are offering different perspectives as to safety and polishing techniques and this is constructive. I’ve learned a bit about top polishing from the discussion and that’s what this place is all about.
Joe
Hello all,
My name is Peter. I own a high end fab shop in Oregon. (http://www.highdesertstoneworks.com) We balance production and classic craftsmanship by running a Park Pro Edge, Yukon and Wizard as well as traditional manual tools of the trade in the hands of truely skilled craftsman. I occasionally get on the internet and read through these forums in an effort to draw on the expirience of other fabricators. This is usually motivated by encountering a challenge that the 40 plus combined years of expirience in our shop cannot immediatley tackle. (no reason to reinvent the wheel) That said I have never posted until now. This is why I have decided to do so now. The way I see it nssthan posts a video on top polishing(and a few others). It is obviously not a video created in response to the original inquiry, simply one of many he has on his youtube channel, http://www.youtube.com/user/nssthan as a result I have watched quite a few of his videos. While I do not agree with all of his techniques or safety practices I cannot deny a few things are obvious to me 1. He has extensive expirience in the trade. 2. He understands processes and not just tasks. I think that videos like his are invaluable to both new and expirienced fabricators. Outside of my original apprenticeship most of what I have learned over the years has been from watching others and then trying it myself and finding a method that works for me and produces a quality finished product. There seems to be alot of concern that nssthan is leading “newbies” down the wrong road and that he is some how hurting the industry. The fact of the matter is that anyone who watches a video or reads a post about a technique and then goes into a clients home and tries that method without first practicing and mastering that technique has no business being in the trades. Those are the people who hurt the industry! On that note if someone needs to be told specifically not to use so much water in a clients home that they ruin the cabinetry, floor or curtains… come on, that’s pathetic. Clearly a demonstration of trying to tear someone down to your level rather than rising to theirs. As a point of fact the answer to how much water should be used in any given situation is- as much as possible given the limitations of your enviroment when using diamond pads on granite. Slight variations can apply when polishing other stones (marble, schist, limestone etc.) and or when using acids and compounds. Anyone who disagrees with this only understands the task of polishing a particular stone and not the physics and process behind polishing any stone. Nssthan’s recent post does a good job of explaining this in part. When polishing any stone with quartz content heat is your enemy until your final buff. (pad/compound) Granite is polished mechanically via sequential grit diamonds, carbides or other abarasives and marbles are polished chemically using acid, rouge and HEAT. I’m not sure who posted about the rotozip and coring holes, but to me this is an example of both leading “newbies” down the wrong road and not understanding the process. If you want to begin understanding core bits and appropriate speeds to use watch nssthans video and understand it’s not a video about cutting as many holes as possible is a period of time its about how a standard bit cuts when all the variables are the same except for the rpms.(hence dressing the bit between holes) Whether it takes 15 seconds or three minutes per hole I think the important thing is understanding the process and controling the variables so you can get consistant results. I cored a hole in 3cm New Venetian today in under 15 second @ 2500 rpms… but any bit cuts like a dream out of the box. The vaccum brazed rotozip will not last. If someone has actually used it, please feel free to correct me. Newbies, save your money. This is getting way too long. Here are a few closing thoughts. It seems that those who have been the most critical are offering the least in the way of actual specific advice to those of us who may be looking for those gems of wisdom. Use less water-Bad Advice! Not specific. Wear safety equipment. Great Advice! Turn your tool on after it’s on the material when top polishing- Great Advice! Videos do a much better job of conveying technique than random cryptic critiscism. To the newbies watch and read as much as you can then practice and ask specific questions. Learn and understand processes not mantras. Like nssthan said ask WHY! Nssthan thanks for taking the time to share your skills and insights. Keep the videos coming. If you agree with me post it. Let’s not allow the egos of a few drive away those who are willing to share and help improve the trade. Parting Shot: Anyone who thinks they know it all is the last guy you should take advice from.petlid:
Welcome to the fabnet.
Nice post, but may I suggest the use of paragraphs which make reading much easier?
In response to a request for a solution to boring holes in granite in a customer’s home, I suggested readers consider the Rotozip with the XCore bits. I have never used same, and have no knowledge as to how long the bits last. However, everything is a trade off. The labor saving from the lack of mess and the ability to have a relatively low-skill operator drill quickly in a home situation may offset the shorter life of these bits if in fact their life is shorter.
It is important to not separate the responding post from it’s context. The original poster asked how to drill efficiently in a customer’s home. That’s a world apart from a shop situation.
Thanks,
Joe
Good post Peter. Stick around and post some more sometime. The work on your website looks very nice. Seeing pictures of laminated edges that are done well are great.
Kowboy:
Thanks for the paragraph tip. Will do.
For me this is not about trade offs it about developing and using a method that is effective and repeatable. Based on my expirience I would advise against sending a “relatively low-skill operator” to core holes on a finished project. At that point you have way too much time and money into the project to take that kind of risk. Doing things right the first time is far more profitable that fixing mistakes.
This is probably more appropriate in the post asking about coring holes a customers home, but here goes anyway. This is the method we have developed after literally thousands on-site core holes:
Tools:
-Variable Speed Grinder brand is your preference, I like Makita. I like one that
runs 2700-10500 rpms.
-1 3/8 wet/dry core bit. I like the DIAREX PRO SERIES TURBO CORE from Gran
Quartz they run about $65 bucks off the truck and we’ve had good luck with
the quality. I like bits with diamonds on the sidewalls, this reduces the wear
on your tool as well as the risk of binding up the bit. You can definitely get bits
cheaper and sometimes they work but I would rather pay a little more for a
diamond matrix that is consistent.
– Suction ring $5-8
-Shop VacProcess:
-Mark your holes using a white pen or tape (your preference) If you are
having difficulty keeping the bit from skipping a few layer of masking tape can
be cheap insurance but not fool proof.
-Have someone hold the shop vac. If your alone get creative.
-Holding the grinder with both hands brace your elbows on the deck and
make contact with the front edge of the bit. Gradually add pressure until the
bit is stable and begin rolling the bit back to level. Once you are about 1/8th
deep stop.
-Apply suction ring and add enough water to fill about an 1/16th inch about
the surface of the stone.
-Make contact with the stone and then turn your tool on. While using a rolling
motion gradually increase downward pressure until you find the “sweet spot”.
-Stop occasionally to add water as the hole dries out. Adding too much water
will make a mess, not enough can build up heat that may crack the stone and
diminsh the effeciveness of your bit and shorten it’s life.
-As you approach the end again brace your elbows and lighten the pressure
so that when you cut through your tool does not bang the surface.Notes:
-Wear ear and eye protection. If you are having trouble controling the dust a
carbon filter mask may be necessary.(nssthan this is for you:)
-Every stone is different you may need to adjust the speed and
pressure to find the “sweet spot” you will know when you find it. If you are
having a hard time, keep practicing on sink drops. Know your stone before
you work a finished piece.
-Start the speed on the lower end as higher speeds (especiallly 30K)
will generate more airborn dust, even with a shop vac. Excessive speed and
heat are the main causes of glazing. If your bit is glazed simply dress it in a
fire brick.
For a demonstration of this check out Nssthans Video
-The main purpose for using water is to act as a lubricant and control heat,
a nice side effect is that it also controls dust, prolongs the life of your bit
and reduces the need for dressing.Video:
Had a few extra minutes at lunch and shot this demo with a cell phone. If you
don’t tear me up too bad, and/or anyone finds it beneficial I’ll bring in the HD
camera and film other topics. Let me know what you’d like to see.Good vid. i like the way the work is the focus. not necessarily to worker.
Only thing I could add (I did not listen to the audio so you may have covered it). If you put a few pieces of duct tape on the bottom side of the cutout. very very very little trash will make it into the cabinet when you punch thru.
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