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Posts
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Posted By Kelsey Crisp on 13 Dec 2010 05:58 PM
If you have personal past issue with anyone, let it be.
Kelsey:
It would be nice if you followed the advice you give to others.
Joe
Posted By Andy Graves on 13 Dec 2010 06:32 PM
Is this conversation for real.I have watched hundreds of hours of DIY programming and I can’t tell you the number of times I see guys without the proper safety equipment. It is part of the filming process. You just can’t have all the safety equipment to do a video where folks can see what is going on.
It’s just different.
Topshop,
You came on the FabNet, seven post in to rip NS a new one. You didn’t go about it in a friendly manner, you just insulted his every move and put him down.
Don’t wonder why he is defending himself, that is what we humans do after being attacked.
Try helping rather than insulting.
Andy
Andy:
I must respectfully disagree. It is unprofessional and unnecessary to demonstrate a procedure without safety equipment in place. Please name me a single safety item that, had it been used, would have made nssthan’s videos less clear. You can’t.
nssthan takes an unprovoked sucker punch at Topshop and when he defends himself you call him “unfriendly”, say he insulted his every move and put him down. I suggest you reread Topshop’s criticism. It was all very fair, as was his defense when ambushed by nssthan’s inuendo.
Joe
OSHA requirements can be tightened up by state OSHA requirements, so maybe your state has more stringent requirements then the ones that I cited in another thread. Mainly from 1910.243(c)(5)(i) They even have a toll free number if you want to call and get some personal counseling. It is just for the federal office, but good counsel. the part the is the most interesting is how passionate one can be about something that they just think and have done no research on.
Don’t worry though. Things have been a little slow and I can dedicate lots of time to the safety legal research. You do however need to ask yourself if you really want to take this on with me — I’d be a great OCD study and I think I’m all in:) Seriously, I spent a lot of time on the phone getting the real answers. Maybe you should move one to not liking my red hat.nssthan
Wow! I joined this forum to “learn” about different methodologies and solutions to top polishing. So far, I have seen two or three practices to reach that goal and a bunch of in-fighting amongst forum members. Is this an educational forum of industry techniques or just a place for “unprofessional” professionals to bash one another’s techniques? No wonder IC’s have a bad rep. All you do is rip each one another over petty, unregulated methods. How about making the forum a little more constructive and sharing various techniques from different levels of expertise? If you have insight into Top Polishing seams, please share. If you want to bash someone for not wearing ear plugs…assume the position of Ned Beatty in the 1972 film ‘Deliverance’. Let’s share professional insight, please.
You wear a red hat???
Oh, man, there’s going to be trouble….
……………………………………………………………I said it before and I’ll say it here again: If you want to post videos without using safety equipment, feel free to do so. It is unlikely to defeat what can be learned by watching the video, which I believe is Andy and other’s point.
However, since this is a conversational site, and since many people feel that not showing safety equipment in proper use is a mistake, why can’t that be pointed out as well??
Either way guys, it’s not worth arguing the point. Dave and Joe have made valid points on the subject. I hope I have as well.
……………………………………………………………………..And for the record, I don’t think this dial has hit anywhere near close to eleven, yet. I doubt it will.
My only motivation was to try and get 2 blue squares under my name.
I should have started with that I guess.
Yeah, it’s great for the short thrill, but trust me, you get hooked after a while. Then its post after post after….
so Is anyone else making videos to submit? This is great cant you just photshop in some saftey equipment… making videos is hard enough…easy to do but when you watch it over…
..I have been doing videos too and it there will always be something or someone out there that will spot i could have done it better…I love safety equipment on the job and in videos..but if you see my table saw I will never have a gaurd on it…I cut strips on my saw and it so dangerous to have that guard on there..Sawstop is awesome…saw gaurds get cloudy over time and are dangerous to me…I know someone can do suffiecient cabinetry with one on their saw I cannot.
I am not a ‘Warranty Warrior” with no disrespect to the people who wrote those fab manuals of these new CT materials we have today…so on video, or seminars there will always be someone in the crowd…who will spot that mistake and really illuminate the hell out of you…whether they are wrong or you are worng..How you argue and fight is on public display…which now I find a mistake with with..if you think you can fight publicly it may increase danger as well…when people are mad , they go on a saw with all the safety equipment..it doesnt matter
at a tradeshow many moons ago, I was called a bad name for marketing this green product…a person was in the audience calling me a bad name and a greenwasher…I started to throw Avonite recycled samples at him…now I was right to blast this wingnut with samples..but all the other potential customers might not have wanted me in their house…so I lost…
I suggest all that want to participate amke videos and submit for feedback..it would help us all when presenting to the public..youse guys down?
Kelsey and Andy, I am sorry to you and others who may have been offended for being so aggressive with my posts. I am not the most subtle person and when I see people demonstrating poor methods I get very upset. I only call it like I see it and have difficulties holding back. A video like that will misdirect anyone trying to learn from it which only hurts the industry I love. Next time I will attempt to hold my tongue and let others learn bad habbits as demonstrated.
I may some day produce a video or two but who knows when I will have that much time to kill. Let’s face it – its all about SEO and creating links to a website.
I am not the one who made this personal. You should see the PM’s I got from Nss. As far as I know we have no past history but for some reason he thinks he knows me.
Seriously? this is the part of your rhetoric that is exhausting. Here is a link to a discussion by SFA directors and members. http://www.stoneadvice.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2292&p=257052&hilit=top+polish#p257052. The only difference in what they are saying and what I showed, including using the tin/aluminum oxide, which they advocate to get the shine better if the buff fails, admitting that the only reason that they don’t like to have to do it is because of the mess, is that they sat work wet to dry and repeat as much as needed. The reason, is water control and only adding heat in at the end.
I thought that was the reason for having a private message option.
nssthanTopshop, You need not apologize if in the next sentence you are once again offering your degrading opinion of the topic for which you are attempting to apologize.
Since you are attempting to convince all of the readers here, you have any and all answers to everything there is to know about stone, we would sincerely enjoy reading and or watching information about the knowledge you have. Once again this site is about sharing.
I have to say, I cannot remember one instance on the history of this site, nor the old ISSFA site where one fabicator has directly bashed another saying their technique is poor and hurts the industry.
As far as the PM’s… if you have trouble with someone, copy and paste it and send it to Andy, he owns this site and allows us to use it.
Posted By nssthan on 14 Dec 2010 07:30 PM
Seriously? this is the part of your rhetoric that is exhausting. Here is a link to a discussion by SFA directors and members. http://www.stoneadvice.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2292&p=257052&hilit=top+polish#p257052. The only difference in what they are saying and what I showed, including using the tin/aluminum oxide, which they advocate to get the shine better if the buff fails, admitting that the only reason that they don’t like to have to do it is because of the mess, is that they sat work wet to dry and repeat as much as needed. The reason, is water control and only adding heat in at the end.
What you showed was building a dam around the work area and flooding the entire area with water. Then you put a lot (my best estimate from the video would be close to a tablespoon) of tin oxide on the area.
If you follow the technique that is referred to on the SFA website you use about an 1/8th of the tin oxide that you use. Also you mist the area that is being polished with water instead of flooding the entire area. When you get to the buff pads you pour a small amount of water off to the edge. You drag the corner of the pad through it to get it wet and then you polish the area until the water drys up. If you still need to polish more you put the edge of the pad back in the water and go back to the work area.
I don’t think an apology is in order from TopShop. Is there any chance that Than and Joe are related? You two seem to have gone to the same school for internet discussion board use at the very least.
Because I haven’t been banned AND compared to Kowboy (unfairly so), here is some food for thought. One of the most important questions that you can ask in order to effectively apply and adapt any theory or concept to any given situation is to ask “WHY”. In the video that I posted I think the big objection was to the amount of water that I used and that I used aluminum oxide and that I used too much.
Lets ask why.POLISHING THEORY:
Here is a quick overview on the state of polishing theory as I understand it.
From: “CERIUM A Guide to its Role in Chemical Technology”
by Barry T. Kilbourn, Published in 1995 by Molycorp, Inc.
Polishing is the act of producing a sufficient degree of surface smoothness so that light, transmitted or reflected at that surface, is not disturbed by surface irregularities. The polishing mechanism is still poorly understood at the chemical/molecular level. Polishing results in material removal and does show a dependence on chemical properties of the stone. The nature of the liquid present during polishing is crucial and only if active hydroxyl groups are present, in alcohols for example but especially in water, does the polishing phenomenon happen.
Lets apply that here. First we need to understand that we are only changing the physical properties of what we are polishing. On all of the steps where we are using grits of diamonds, meaning every pad, heat is not necessary. So, when the mantra “wet to dry” the question that needs to be asked “Is working the surface dry important?” The answer is definitively no. The reason for working wet to dry and wet to dry is simply to use as little water as you possibly can IF you are polishing inside someone’s house. So the next question would be “Can you use too much water?” Inside someone’s house — yep. In the shop –nope.
By using a lot of water you control the heat. By controlling the heat you control the matrix that the diamonds are in and allow them to cut more uniformly. This is important on stones like ubatuba.
Secondly, with regard to the aluminum oxide. The objection was that I didn’t need it because it was already in the buff pad. Something that has apparently been lost in the stone business is a basic understanding of the compound.
ALUMINUM OXIDE:
There are several different aluminum oxides and each has its place. The one one hears about most is Linde A. This is a .3 micron polish that has been around for a long time. Linde also makes a .05 micron polish called Linde B and a 1.0 micron polish called Linde C. The Linde B is a little softer, 8 vs. 9 on the mohs scale.
By adding your own you have the ability of controlling the last “grit” that you are working on the stone. Understanding this allows you to adapt when what you are working on is not turning out sufficient. Simply working more and more might get you more of the same results.
The reason for working this final stage to dry is to allow the compound to make contact with the surface where the water acts as both a lubricant and a barrier.
The last complaint was that I used too much. Why is that important? If I add too much of the compound does it change the compounds ability to effect the surface — no. Could it make cleanup more difficult — yep. Does the aluminum oxide cost $100/pound that I like to use — yep. Should I use as little as possible — absolutely! But, that is more of a financial tip.
All that said. Do what you want. There is the science and remember to ask WHY!
nssthan
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