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Tom M wrote
Thanks, Andy. I assume this was a rebroadcast of the seminar we all witnessed?
Yep. That wasn’t so much for you as others that may see this thread in the future. I though it was a good idea and very informative.
Hey Ya’ll,
I thought I might muddy up the waters a little about laser templating. There is a Salt Lake company called M.E. Machinery and Design that makes a laser system they claim blows the LT 55 out of the water for less money. The claim is it is more accurate and easier to control and export data than anything on the market. Paul White at Cache Valley Countertops uses it and says it works well for him. I have seen it in operation and it seems pretty easy to use. Might be worth a looksee.
Contact Jeff Maughan at 801.886.2900 for more info. The website is http://www.me-machinery.com.
This is a small company, which means you deal directly with the owner. Could be good or bad . . .
Russ
All,
I am going to throw my 2cents in here about templating. I have looked at them all, examined them all, and they all seem to work pretty well, but here is what works for me. Photo-Top. E-template looks like it would work well also. The reason we use Photo-Top is as follows:
It is in a case that we can pretty much drop, kick, drop in a lake, slam on the brakes and have it hit the floor and when we get to the job everything is safe and sound. No tripod to get out, no laptop to hook up, no cables to get out. Just a roll of stickers and some id markers. Shoot a bunch of pictures, pick up the plaques, stick it all back in the case and on my way to the next job. Just by chance if I want to photo-top using my Harley, the pelican case straps right onto the back of the bike. Away I go. We template about 30 jobs a week and the camera system works flawlessly. Sorry, but that is just the way it is. One more thing, if I could get my cell phone to work as well as photo-top, the world would be good.
Joe,
I hired a nineteen year old college girl. She spent three days in the field with me. After that, she was doing photo-tops on her own and taking very good notes. She also was doing this by herself. We recently have purchased more field kits. We have taught some of our retail measure agents to template out of state for us. That is another big l=plus. We can buy field kits. They are absolutely no good to anyone without the software. We have taught them how to template, e-mail us the pictures so we can process them, and manufacture and ship fabricated goods to them. So far, the installers out of state tell us they fit like a glove. They keep asking us to sell more countertops because dropping countertops for us is like taking candy from a baby.
Mory
Russ,
Thanks for pointing me to them. I will call for a price, but I am less impressed at what I see so far.
What they need most, from ny first impression,. is YOU!
The site is horribly set up, the pictures don’t tell me anything about the unit, etc. It is a classic example of what you taught us in your seminar: Let pros do the stuff you need done. I started writing this post awhile ago, and was making running notes as I saw the pics. When I switched to the video, it closed out all my open firefox windows, except the one it was occupying. Not a good start, but not their product’s fault.
Feel free to use the last comment and edit as you will. They need an intervention on this and you are the man to run it.
I don’t like the way you seem to have to leave the corners blank to fillet or radius later. I actually don’t think you need to, but they seemed to imply it.
I don’t like what I see in their CAD program. It looks like a cheap Auto CAD immitator. Anyone who needs to go through three snaps to finish a three-point arc is using cheap imitation CAD ware. You don’t need to go through this in good CAD programs. Now, it is possible you can use the one you’re familiar with, but they don’t seem to make this clear.
Bad video. Why do you show the set up two thirds of the way through the whole process demo?
Sloppy, but again, not the products fault.
BUt the computer sitting on top of that laser just loooks… I don’t know… awkward. It also wiggled around when he moved it. That can’t help you with yuour accuracy.
Can any LT user tell me if it is worth bringing a blue-tooth hook up for the laptop? I think I’d rather work with that size, as the image is so much bigger.
One reall cool thing about the ME is the blue tracking lines that guide you to the vertices.
I’m not sure why you need them, but it’s cool.
It brought up one thing that I think photo top kicks butt at.
Easy to identify the vertex and see if it is part of the top, or part of the accessory info (switch plates, etc.).
You click the vertex in question, and the corresponding vertex in the photo lights up. Man, that’s good stuff.
So I’ll call for the price, and thanks for bringing a new element into the mix.
Mory,
I know your point is to show how easy and flawless this thing is, and that is probably the main sticking point with me.
It is not only flawless if done right, it is easy enough to do it right, and that, as Joe alluded to, is an important factor.
Although its a minor point, I use the template/measure period as a time where my customer can get comfortable with us, and get picky into the details. I take a lot of notes and encourage her to find that special thing that makes her top her top. No nineteen year old templaters for me.
But with Photo top, I really like the direct hot link from drawing to photos in split-screen. That can come in handy in so many ways it’s scary cool. I was begging for someone to tell me if you can place a vertex on the fly. You can always do that in the dxf, but can you imagine doing it on the photo and hitting the spot in the dxf?
“Oh, snap! I forgot to mark that outlet. Now I have to go and click where the cut out will be anyway” click, click, click, click. Done”
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The return policy is leading me to the LT-55.Some details need to be worked out, but so far, that’s what it’s looking like.
Tom
A good friend, who I wish would start commenting here likes his LT, but thinks you should have a well trained, well paid guy on it. That may tip to Mory’s claim about the Pelican case, as well as the operator skill level.
He does feel also that you should try not to adjust the tri-pod height, as the magnification in level error can throw off some longer distance shoots. He made targets that extends the front edge upward to splah height.
He feels it is acurate enough to use for his very expensive (and high margin) metal tops, but he does a stick back-up, because if you lose one of those, it takes a long time to make up the loss.
He had a great idea about charging for solid surface revisits with cheap 1/8″ MDF templates. Great to show your customer and have her sign off on it for good measure.
On estone and granite, however, he feels its beneficial enough to do it free (or as part of the cost), to give you that extra confidence your self. I’m on the fence on that, but since one of my fabricators doesn’t work with dxf files, except those in the system, it also lessens the cost, since you have to make the templates anyway.
The Silestone fabricator I use mentions a lot of stone-only guys use the laser.
I think no matter what system you use, the operator should be a well trained, well paid guy. Screw ups at this stage can only cost you money! It dosn’t matter how easy it is if the operator doesn’t understand the rest of the process he may be missing something central to the fabrication whether it’s photo based or laser based or string or arms.
We bought the LT-55 at the show. Yes you have to carry a tripod, but how many go to template a job with less than at least a small car? We have always photographed the site for several reasons and will continue to do so with the lt-55. Takes no more than 2 or 3 minutes and can prove invaluable. It’s not always just about the measurements.
As with any purchase (car, truck, CNC, house) many things come into play not least of which is gut feel. Almost everyone who has bought a major item feels they have made the right choice and will confirm their purchase to their friends and inquirers with good things to say about it. When someone else buys what we bought we feel justification for our purchase.
I looked at them all and made my decision based on what the system offers, testimonials by others, price, support, training required, what I saw at the show and boiled it all down and then used gut feel to make the final decision.
Good luck with your decision Tom.
Only time will tell if you make the right one.
Paul
Tom M wrote
I was begging for someone to tell me if you can place a vertex on the fly. You can always do that in the dxf, but can you imagine doing it on the photo and hitting the spot in the dxf?
“Oh, snap! I forgot to mark that outlet. Now I have to go and click where the cut out will be anyway” click, click, click, click. Done”
Tom
Tom,
What they don’t tell you about PT is that you can template an entire kitchen without the dot tape if you needed to. You wouldn’t want to for accuracy’s sake, but it is possible. The marker panels are the only thing that scales the drawing and all items within each photo. The tape is a shortcut that the software picks up automatically. Here is an easy example of how manually placing a point can save your butt.
Let’s say you have full overlay doors. We always tape to the front of the face frame, requiring drawers to be pulled out. I am lazy and I really enjoy getting in and out of a house in 15 minutes, so I don’t take em out, I just pull them open so the camera can see the dots. This time I bumped the drawer closed when placing my marker panels and didn’t fix it. Run the photos, you don’t get a data point there cuz it only sees half a dot. No sweat. If you have good pictures, just go the Image Markup Tab, Go to “Label point of interest”. Zoom in as far as you are comfortable, place the crosshairs on the corner where the intersection of cabs is, and also the stile on the other end where the range opening is. Do this is minimum of two, ideally three or four different pictures, click “Recompute Basic Elements” Wait 10 seconds. Viola. You now have two data points and have your line for the face frame.
I have used this many times where you mark a sink center with a pencil line when you walk in, but started talking to the homeowner and forgot to place a dot there. No sweat, zoom in on the pencil line, same way, click the same spot in a couple photos, now you have your sink center.
We mark outlets this way. All that tape close together is hard to shoot. Take a black magic marker, draw 45s running off all four corners, when you run the photos, make your data points at the intersection of the black line and the box. Done. Takes 5 minutes.
You will not be disappointed with Photo Top, Tom. It is a great system that you keep getting better at the more you use it.
We made up a SOP for the template person to use. It reminds us what to do. Paul I think the advantage of PT is that it doesn’t have to be your best trained person. Just some one with common sense.
I think you’r right Jon, but it probably applies to any of the units. A little training goes a lot further with the application of common sence. I’ve had many employees over the years, even some very smart ones who couldn’t seem to apply their smarts and common sence at the same time.
Paul
It’s coming down to the wire.
I just got a call from the guys I haven’t even mentioned yet, and they have a pretty good sense of why they are better than the other photo guys I have been talking about.
Is there anyone on this forum that uses a newer E Template system?
Anyone?
They are pretty convincing on the phone, and I forgot they were cheaper than PT. Training is double, and the yearly maintenance is about the same, I think.
Anyone?
Tom
Tom, I have looked onto the e-template product and I do think it is a great system. I use the lt-55 and love it but if I was to do it all over again I am cannot say I wouldnt choose the e-template system. I also beleive that the e-template system is better that the photo top system. Again I have never used either but when I was talking with the e-template guys they had quite the list of things that there sysem would do that the pt system would not.
I chose the lt-55 because of the ease of use and how quick it is to shoot a template.
Travis,
If you still have the list of the things that E-Template will do that Photo-Top will not, could you post it. I would like to make a real comparison of what they say Photo-Top will not do and then we can really compare facts and not he said, she said. Lets do a real research right here on the Fab Net. After all this is to bring out the truth.
Mory
After thinking about all of the templating discussion, I am going to put together some real testing facts if the manufacturers will supply their systems to us. I will be asking for some help so it is not only my opinion. Lest bring out the true facts of all templating systems. Some may be better than others, some may be exactly the same. I think, though, that it is time some one did some testing on the systems and bring out the plusses and the minuses. All of the systems probably work very well and we must remember some cost more than others. Lets put together a review of all of the templating systems. That is a review done by fabricators for fabricators and then lets publish the results.
Mory
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