-
Posts
-
Linda,
the statement points out that Fabnet isn’t serving a single master, but four competing products, stone, quartz, laminate and solid surface. My point was that no one will be well served, so I guess we agree that fabnet serves no master.
Were we differ in in what is a fact and what is an unbiased fact. To me, there are only facts. Facts aren’t biased or unbiased, they just are. Logically, what is called three sided symmetry in rotation will determine what is a fact and what is an opinion. Take a penny, hold it up the right way and it looks like a circle. turn it ninety degrees and it resembles a thin line or a thin rectangle, turn it 45% more and it looks more like an elipse. So, a penny can not be described as a circle, an elipse, or a thin rectangle. None describes it factually.
Now take a Mercedes Benz hood ornament. You can rotate in in plane and it looks the same, no top, no bottom, but again if you rotate it forward or backward, it starts looking like an elipse or a rectangle. So you can describe it as neither.
Now a ball is different, no matter how it is presented, it looks like a ball, or more accurately, a circle. This is three sided symetetry symmetry in rotation. Saying that a ball looks like a circle is always true, thus a fact.
As others have pointed out, granite is a random material, unlike solid surface or quartz to a lesser degree. Our “facts” will be pretty close to actual, while granite can never be adequedetly described well.
Courteous discussions, huh…. Can’t see that happening. Any negative info given about granite starts the personal attacks and ridicule. That thread where a consumer was about to get ripped off by a high Corian quote, well after I responded to the spurious charges, the thread was sanitized and I think they banned me! For helping find a local fabricator, which caused a stoner to denigrate both me personally and Fabnet, which once I pointed out the exact details and linked to Fabnet so others could read what really happened…… Was I polite? About as much as the scururlous poster hiding behind a new fake screen name…
On another site, a poster asked about radon and quartz. They started a thread for just that purpose. I posted some links that showed the relationship between quartz ratios of natural stone and radon, while not conclusive it did point to concerns, while telling the Original Poster to give me a few days to find out more about the issue. A homeowner complained and the post was deleted, luckily the OP had found the links before they were deleted.
Unbiased info, educational discourse and civility are possible when dealing with reasonable and educated people. Once another kind starts the downward spiral, either other members enforce civility through censure, calling for the miscreant to back up their claims with evidence, or they become part of the problem as well. Tom serves Fabnet well in this regard, but Fabnet needs less moderation.
Other sites aren’t as well heeled…. Were they more as you described, there would be no debates after facts have settled the issues.
Al, the moment the discourse gets ugly, the debate is pointless. That’s what’s wrong with those knee-jerk sites. Those posters who get all nasty think that their opinion, backed up with their cherry picked research is the only correct info that should be considered. The stone sites are by no means unusual in this, and if you’re going to back up your argument, any study is pretty good ammo.
The problem comes when you ignore the other guy’s data. That’s where the bias comes through. It’s as unrealistic to think that stone is the be-all and end-all just as it is for sol surf.
Anyway, FabNet happens to be my favorite playground and I like helping to pick up the place every now and then. I mess it up enough.
al wrote
Linda,
the statement points out that Fabnet isn’t serving a single master, but four competing products, stone, quartz, laminate and solid surface. My point was that no one will be well served, so I guess we agree that fabnet serves no master.
Al,
Do you believe a site that only “serves” SS would be of value to a wide range of people? I am more interested in a site that serves the fabricator or consumer, not a particular product.
When it comes to selecting a countertop surface, the relevence of the facts or “truth” about a type of surface becomes the issue. My goal when helping a customer select the surface for their home or commercial project, is to make sure they know the facts that will impact their project. One type of surface does not fill the needs of all customers. Sometimes the issue is simply the look or feel, other times it is the durability, ease in cleaning, etc. that is important.
Linda
Tom M wrote
The problem comes when you ignore the other guy’s data. That’s where the bias comes through. It’s as unrealistic to think that stone is the be-all and end-all just as it is for sol surf.
.
Good debate is wonderful to have. Where I – and many “stoners” as we are so fondly dubbed
– have an issue, is where “opposing” view points are based on provably bad science and lies. Yet when we respond to this view point with honesty, facts and knowledge, we get lambasted as knee-jerk loudmouths that do not want to listen to reason.By reading some discussions here, one almost comes to the conclusion that stone is a bad word if you happen to work with plastic and that it is a thing to be blasted, mistrusted and run down every time an opportunity presents itself.
Stone gets blasted with sensationalist headlines taken way out of context (600 Georgians die from radon… or 400 tops break at the sink cut-out … or NASA says granite harbors bacteria… to name but a few chestnuts) Yet, when you go through the trouble to read and gather some background, you find that the context and content have been skewed and twisted so bad it could put any contortionist to shame.
While a lot of stone only guys are not fond of plastics, you’d go far to find a thread dedicated to finding pictures of bad plastic installs, cracks in Silestone tops or integrated sinks gone bad. We try to market our products through customer education and we try to rid our business of bad operators – also by customer education. We try to put out all facts regarding stone with integrity and honesty and hope to foster clients that will insist on, and recognize, good quality stone and craftsmanship.
My 0.02
Stone Girl, I think I would rather be called a “stoner” than a “plastic fabricator”, hmmm. How about “Kevlar Kryptonite Fabricator”, yeah, that’s it.
Linda,
All good points…
Here is why solid surface needs someone to speak for it. It once had issfa, but I think that most would agree that that has not been the case for some years now, culminating in the Consumer Reports debacle. A good association keeps watch, responds to challenges from competing products by pointing out the flaws and shows why their product is superior. Can it be 100 effective, no, like me not believing much of what the MIA pushes, that that defies common sense and science. Still, getting the info out there, like I did on that first Snyder study (the two biggest kitchen journals), whether they believe all of it or not, you get them to thinking for themselves.
Having an organized effort to gather facts that YOU can use will help you serve customers better. MIA has done an excellent job for it’s members. Solid surface needs the same. A lot of issues have been just dumped in solid surfaces lap, sanitation, radiation, radon, staining and a host of issues that consumers are mostly ignorant of when picking a countertop material.
Say a homeowner reads CR, decides to go with quartz. Most likely they head to the big box store where they will get very little accurate info. If you get to work with them, they will most likely make a good, informed decision. If the go to a stone shop, they will hear “stink and foam”….
Stonergirl,
from your first response on the consumer sites, you sank to personal attacks and name calling. In about a month, your industry responded with only one scientific study to back up anything. I believe it was you that posted it, in response to Cristians ridiculous claim that polishing stone “closes” the pores and makes granite difficult to stain. That study was interesting, I took the time to read and understand it, but it specifically rejected your claims, specifically mentioned quartz and said it did not fit in to the ductile/ brittle transition therory of polishing. (This was a study of Jewel polishing, covered three therories of why a material polishes).
By far, the vast majority of the responses from the stone industry were personal attacks aimed at me. Let’s see, you called me stupid, lacking in common sense, and refered to me as an “ass with a grinder”.
Stonegirl,
the internet has changed everything. People can read what you posted for themselves, what didn’t get deleted by the moderators. Coming here and acting like you have been responsible and civil just proves your “integrity and honesty”.
You got lambasted as knee jerk loudmouths because you refused to enter into a debate with facts and civility. Others like Darryl would respond civily and were treated with respect, yet they dropped out quickly as they had no “facts” that they could use with out losing their credibility. Most of those long and vicious threads were started with a one line comment, such as warning a consumer to pick another color of granite than red because of radiation levels, a proven fact and a valid cause for concern. I did not say all granites were bad, just the reds. Later because STONERS ridiculed the info, started calling names and labeling me as a liar, I did more research and added Cafe Brown to the ones to avoid.
My point is that most of the negative info was posted in response to “knee jerk loudmouths that did not want to listen to reason”. Had there been individuals in your industry capable of response, their arguments would have been refuted with respect. As it was, I responded in kind and gave every last one of you a public lesson in picking a fight you can not win.
Sensational headlines? That was a university paper quoting the EPA’s estimates of deaths per year due to radon. It stated the scientific fact that radon comes from the Radium in granite, that Georgia had a bad radon problem, and it needed addresed.
The 400 unit condo story was from stoneadvice.com, you know well that it was a true story, that all of the granite sink rails were failing and that half were rodded and half weren’t.
You know that the NASA funded study found 100,000 bacteria per gram of stone, LIVING inside the granite with SIBLING DNA found that either proved that they were multiplying or that some sort of unknown force was “transporting” family groups of bacteria withing solid rock. Bacteria living inside the fissures of stone is a proven scientific fact, known since the oil industry discoved it in the 1920’s.
You want to prove that you sell stone honestly? Provide your website link, you know that I will go through it and point out what is indefensible…
This isn’t stoneadvice.com, you will be treated fairly if you post facts and studies to back your views. Yet from your post above, you rejected every point that I have brought up in the past.   Were you to keep that method of debate, you will be better off refusing.
For those who feel I am out of bounds here, re read stonegirls first paragraph, second sentence:
“provably bad science and lies”
You have just called me a liar.
You have alledged bad science without providing any studies or facts.
Put up or shut up……..
Good debate is wonderful to have. Where I – and many “stoners” as we are so fondly dubbed have an issue, is where “opposing” view points are based on provably bad science and lies. Yet when we respond to this view point with honesty, facts and knowledge, we get lambasted as knee-jerk loudmouths that do not want to listen to reason.
I want to be careful how I say this. I’ve read a lot of blogs, forums and articles. On a lot of different subjects. In debate, a common tactic you can see on these sites is one side offering evidence refuting the other’s research and declaring it as settled science. It’s lazy, it’s condescending, and it usually shows up more often when the publication/site has skin in the game. Political sites are the worst, but commercial sites aren’t that far behind.
The worst thing about this is that, more often than not, everyone is at least partially correct. Everyone mostly uses data from studies that are done under controlled conditions, using industry approved methods. The degree of accuracy is hugely different, but that tends to balance out as the debate continues. Worse still is that both sides are so passionate about their side, that it is easy for them to simply consider unreasonable any data that conflicts with theirs. Global Warming®, for instance.
I’m jealous as crap, though, at you guys. Think about it – If someone were to ask you:
Is granite stain resistant, or stain susceptible; is it highly heat resistant or do you have to be careful with pots and pans; is it absorbent or is it repellent? You can honestly, with no fear of contradiction answer: “Yes”.
I hate that.
Not sure why you guys don’t like “stoners”. It has a great sound, and is a darn sight better than “fabbers”, to which I’ve heard solid surface guys referred. I trust it’s not the drug thing. Fabbers is bad, mostly because it sounds like “Flabbers”, which describes some of us to a T.
By reading some discussions here, one almost comes to the conclusion that stone is a bad word if you happen to work with plastic and that it is a thing to be blasted, mistrusted and run down every time an opportunity presents itself.
By reading some of the discussions here, you’d think that Dave and Gordon are passionately involved with each other, one of whom has terrible taste in music. What impression do you get from most of the discussions? Stone not only gets good press, by many of us who might be better without it, by the way, but that press is getting better. One of the guys here who is a solid surface fabricator, and more importantly is one of the most respected businessmen I know, lauds the qualities of stone regularly. Thinks one the best moves he has made was to start fabricating hard surface materials Your gaining huge market share here. Enjoy it.
I think that, almost by design, this site does a fair job of sticking it to everyone. Do you think you have been treated unreasonable by anyone here, save maybe Al (and I don’t want to know the history of that)? If you stick around, you’ll hear us bust the chops of every major brand of solid surface. I mean by almost every single person here. We don’t pull punches, and stone deserves it’s place, right next to tools, manufacturers, and ISSFA (and YOU don’t want to kno the history of THAT). Stone is not the be-all and end-all of countertop materials. There ain’t none.
While a lot of stone only guys are not fond of plastics, you’d go far to find a thread dedicated to finding pictures of bad plastic installs, cracks in Silestone tops or integrated sinks gone bad.
With all due respect, solid surface gets regularly trashed on stone only sites. Often when it is simply brought up. No big deal, but it happens often. It need not require pictures. It only requires intent.
We try to market our products through customer education and we try to rid our business of bad operators – also by customer education.
A Sysiphean task, the ridding of bad fabricators. You’ll think you’ve gotten a few, and you turn around and there’s twice as many behind you. They breed like rabbits, the little bastards.
As for education, stone has easily been the most complex and careful info selling I have done. Cabinets are worse, but not by a lot. That’s probably why I keep asking about the diversity of facts around stone. What I need to learn is how to find the road that goes straight to each individual consumer or couple and drive it. You seem to have that down.
A thought occurred to me though: If we get repulsed by the salesmanship at Home Center stores, you guys must absolutely gag. Mortified by the impression some person is leaving about your product, and quite probably hurting the long-term future of it.
This can’t do your industry any good.
“Is granite stain resistant, or stain susceptible; is it highly heat resistant or do you have to be careful with pots and pans; is it absorbent or is it repellent? You can honestly, with no fear of contradiction answer: “Yes”. “
Tom,
the answer is not yes, it is maybe if you follow our care and cleaning rules and have the right kind of granite. I have had consumers that bought solid surface give me reports of friends or family cracking a top with a hot pot. On two of your examples, solid surface can be answered with a resounding “yes”. With granite, as you stated, general statements need to be left out of the conversations unless you do as the MIA does and take the safe road.
Tom, ………..and you brought Gordons taste in music to this discussion for……….?
Unlike you Mather, I don’t have a mosaic of Arlo Guthrie over my QUEEN bed.
Al,
It most certainly is “Yes”.
That is part of what Kevin and Stonegirl keep saying. It is one of my biggest concerns with selling stone.
This stone has these benefits, but those problems. That stone can take this, but you need to be careful about that. All kinds of differences, which relate to how we inform our customers regarding care and cleaning.
Dave,
So the thing that bothered you was the music comment? Hmmm….
And I have a friend who is touring with Arlo right about now. She’s on stage with him in Philly, or Pittsburg or something, then staying a couple of weeks.
As a great philosopher once said:
“Anyway the wind blows”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.