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Looks like heat trauma.
Nice work, Karl. I agree it can be repaired, but must stick with Tom here.
Still not quite as repairable as SS in my mind.
Did you cut and remove that area or finish it out? Just curious.
Gordon wrote
Looks like heat trauma.
Nice work, Karl. I agree it can be repaired, but must stick with Tom here.
Still not quite as repairable as SS in my mind.
Did you cut and remove that area or finish it out? Just curious.
Sure we all have much to learn about Quartz, but most of you will remember when a Solid Surface counter was replaced just because of a cracked sink, cove splash or some other issue that is a standard repair today. Fabricators are pushing the envelope with Quartz in many ways, the same can be done with repairing damaged Quartz if we try.
One thing about the countertop business, as competitors knock the competing products, they force improvements. Granite had to develop better sealers, repairs, seams and start resining because of competition. Showing the world the issues with quartz will force the manufactures to make a better product.
Wasn’t that long ago that you had to warn consumers about boiling water and solid surface sinks. Now a days, sell the right sink and it is a non issue.
Karl,
What kind of acid did this? Something present in the average household or was there something unusual about the type and amount of acid that did the damage?
Thanks,
Al
Al, there are “better sealers” available. Problem is, most granite guys are WAY to cheap to spend $199.99 per gallon. And before some of you granite guys weigh in with “not me”, I’ll tell you horror stories till your water-proof apron falls off.
Here is what I have come up with on the limitations, need to read back through this thead and add some of the stuff brought up so far.
Next is to write a paragraph comparing it to granite, and admitting that it is harder to scratch than solid surface.
———————————————————————————————–
Over selling of materials
So much hype goes into selling quartz products, so much mis information is out there even on reputable consumer sites, even Consumer Reports gets it wrong. This article will attempt to dispell some of the marketing claims and out right lies that are told about quartz/engineered stone materials.
Manufactures claim that quartz is 93% quartz crystals and 7% resin, a white lie at best. By weight, this is true since the stone is much heavier than the resin. What matters is percentage by volume, since the less solid surface resin and the more quartz, the higher the scratch resistence. By volume, quartz is around 65% quartz and 35% solid surface resin. When reading the manufactures claims, Quartz is said to be apparently one of the hardest substances out there and the shine seems to be very difficult to break down, yet they don’t warranty the loss of shine and give you a list of cleaning products to avoid using to protect the shine.
Why should a consumer care? Because you can scratch the solid surface in the quartz and the quartz component can stain. In the end, you get the disadvantages of both granite and solid surface when you buy quartz..
Hanstone says
“HanStone™’s durable surface is designed to withstand normal use. While it is resistant to scratches, cuts, and chipping, cutting directly on HanStone™ should be avoided. Using cutting boards and taking care not to drop or move heavy objects on the surface will help to ensure the long-lasting beauty of HanStone™.”
Most quartz brands sell quartz as being heat resistent, claiming that hot pots can be set on the product, yet reading their care and cleaning sheets or their warranty tells another story. Cambria warns that sudden and rapid temprature changes can harm, especially near edges, as well as sustained or regular heating of the surface nor direct heating of the top from hot pots and pans and other cooking units like deep fryers, crock pots, toaster ovens, griddles, or electric skillets. They warn to use a trivet.
The manufactures care and cleaning sheets as well as the warranty sheets are full of accurate information, that disputes what their marketing info sometimes clamims. We use the manufactures sign off sheets to warn consumers of the shortcomings of these products. Many companies give out the warning sheets after the sale, during the template process, but we feel that is unethical, so we provide it during the sales process. These sign off sheets rune two to three pages of fine print and youcan lose sales by showing them in advance, but I wouldn’t consider selling a e-stone top without providing one. Be sure and ask for one before you put up the deposits.
From Consumer Report:
“Quartz needs less upkeep and can be customized into unusual shapes”
Countertops are one product where beauty and practicality can coexist. Granite and quartz made it through a gantlet of spills, hot pots, knives, and more with top scores. But quartz needs less care to keep its good looks. “
Consumer Reports has this completely wrong, except for the less upkeep. Quartz is worked with the same tooling as granite, with one important exception, the polishing pads. It is more difficult to polish quartz without burning the solid surface portion of the mix, so it generally can not be top polished by most fabricators, making custom shapes very difficult. As you will read below, hot pots will damage quartz, knives will scratch it, and there are many products that will stain it.
Staining issues
Caesarstone warranty exculdes stains and water spots, Zodiac and Silestone both warn of bleach, inks, permanant markers and oil soaps staining quartz.
Hanstone says that their product is stain resistant, yet they also say that liquid spills and stains from fruits, vegetables, or other foods should be wiped up and cleaned with soap and water. They give a list of chemicals that will stain or etch their product:
Oil soaps, bluing agents, dyes, stains, paint thinner or strippers. Solvents such as acetone, nail polish, lacquer thinner, or bleach (short-term exposure is acceptable for purpose of cleaning difficult stains-based on removing and rinsing applied area within 5 minutes). Chlorinated solvents such as trichloroethylene or methylene chloride. Benzene, toluene, methyl ethyl ketone. Concentrated acids such as hydrocyanic acid, hydrofluoric acid, hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid. Chemicals with high alkaline/PH levels (pH > 10).
While not telling you which household products contain the dangerous chemicals…..
Cleaning quartz
The advice about common household cleaners needs to be followed to avoid permanent spotting. Hanstone and other quartz brands says bleach will harm if left longer than five minutes. Others warn not to use bleach at all, nor products that contain bleach. Other common household products will stain or etch quartz, permanant markers, oil sopas, or high pH cleaning products. Cleaning products like Scotch brite pads, Soft Scrub, Comet, Bon Ami, or Ajax will remove the shine or polish on the tops. The biggest mistake people make in cleaning E-Stone is that they use products with strong alkalis in them such as ammonia, trisodium phosphate or sodium carbonate (washing soda, soda ash). These products soften polyester and can do great damage. Hanstone says to avoid using cleaning products that contain oils, powders or abrasives. In short, it is difficult to know what to clean quartz counters with, and you have to be sure to warn babysitters, visitors and children on what not to use.&l;/font>
We had one consumer spray a small pot with oven cleaner, getting some overspray on her brand new, two day old quartz top. She happened to get it on both sides of the seam, and was left with one of three choices, a $1000 repair bill, living with the damage, or replacing the enitre countertop.
Inherent material issues
water absorbtion , Cambria .02% This is a pretty common value, about the same as some better granites, still leaving the material vulrable to staining.
Moisture expansion .10%, this along with heat expansion issues makes quartz susceptable to heat damage at cooktops, yet some brands alllow seams within sinks and cooktop cut out spaces, which is forbiden in solid surface since it might lead to damage.
Apperance issues
All of the brands use consistency of color and patter as a major selling point, yet warn of the oposite in their warranty and fabrication manuals. Cammbria warns of shade, color, pattern, size and shape that are inherant and unique, warns that seams may stand out for the previous reasons.
Fabrication issues
I have included a link to LG’s quartz product fab manual. Notice the list of flaws to look for, common defects in the material Also note that LG allows seams in cooktop and sink cutouts. Keeping in mind that this is a relitively new product, unlike solid surface that has been around since the sixties and seventies, so the fabriction rules are evolving. Quartz is 35% by volume solid surface and no solid surface allows cooktop cutout seams due to heat expansion issues, which quartz has as well. And note in the warranty section that seam performance isn’t covered either, so they could care less where you put the seam. If it pops, no sweat off their brow.
Silica dust and handling issues are warned about in the manual with worker safety being the issue. The silica dust causes lung disease, leading to cancer. Handling issues are due to the extreme weight of the slabs causing injuries to workers.
Edging costs as much as $50 per foot, with thirty to sixty feet of edging being common. Materials like solid surface are easier to work, so many edges are included in the cost. Sink cutouts and cooktop cutouts cost extra in quartz from $50 to $250 per cutout, again in solid surface this is included
Quality of sheet goods
Although giving you much more consitency in pattern and color than regular granite, engineered stone still cannot give you the inconspicuous seam inherent with solid surface tops. Engineered stone, like slab granite, has its own unique flaw characteristics, such as more resin some areas than others. Pooling issues, which are spots of resin or color up to the size of a quarter, are common in quartz slabs.
Pitts,voids, inclusions like washers, nuts, even rubber gloves are common in quartz, some brands allow defects up to the size of a quarter, other brands even more as long as all of them are contained within one quardrant of the sheet. This is a major problem when estimating and ordering material, how many sheets will it take when you don’t know how you are going to cut around the defects?
Other complaints have been occlusions, thickness of slabs being inconsistant, loss of shine, scratching and slight bowing of the sheet stock which won’t allow a flat seam without lippage. Viatera warns of cracks, chips, circular scratches, milky or hazy finish, forgeign objects, and warpage. Caesarstone has a good picture of pooling, dime size in their fab manual, page 3. Zodiac has a reputation for poor quality issues, as well as the quadrant rule allowing defects within the sheet.
Some brands go so far as saying that if a sheet is shipped out, it has met the quality standards, so returns are not allowed.
Stress issues
Fabnet post about warped e stone, stopped a 20 hp bridge saw, tremendous stress in a sheet actually pinching the blade enough to stop the saw. Other fabrication sites have reported larger saws being stopped, expensive blades ruined by the stress in the materials.
Why should consumers care? Because the same stress is still present in a completed top, leading to backsplashes bowing, seams not being perfectly flat, and possible long term stability issues.
Repair issues
Problem with quartz is that it is difficult to top polish. Some granites top polish well, with care and the proper pads. Quartz however is more difficult due to the mix of materials, solid surface and quartz chips (mostly). You can burn the material with the pad, use plenty of water spraying on the edge when you polish in the shop, but we can deal with all the water there. How do we deal with a quarter inch water line flooding the pads when we grind in your home? Some are working on repair methods with quartz, yet they are either expensive, or these guys don’t live near you.
Some fabricators claim to be able to top polish quartz, I wouldn’t try it myself, not in a consumer’s home. At one countertop conference, they had a seminar on repairing quartz. One of the speakers ideas was that you would never repair the damage good enough to make it not be noticed, since the consumer knew where the damage was. His method was to fix the repair, then move a few feet away and start wiping the top with a polishing cloth, while calling the consumer in to look at the repair, pointing o the undamaged spot. Using chicanery to get paid is one way of doing business, though not highly recomended.
UV issues
All of the white quartz are prone to UV damage. Some of the darker ones will fade, they took the black out of our boxes for a couple of years because of issues with that particular color. Speaks well of Hanwah in my opinion. The fixed the issues and we now offer black.
I recomend the yellow or light brown quartz colors, so the fading and yellowing isn’t as noticable. It can be a gradual process, like watching your own kid grow up, you never really notice. Take a sample and put it away for a few years, wrapped up in a dark place. Then see if it has yellowed.
The problem is the polyester resins. They can be made UV resistant, but it costs some major bucks to do it. Even Avonite solid surface has this issue with their 100% polyester colors, we warn people about it when they pick a color that will change radically. There are some color of Avonite that do terrible, we always show the customer a five or six year old sample before taking the order. Some of their whites are just fine, will darken just a shade or two, others turn plumb yellow with age. Most of the worst offenders have been discontiued.
Caesarstone warns not to store sheets were they will be exposed to sunlight. Viatera warns to use tarps to cover any material exposed to sunlight. Viatera warns about seams being in direct sunlight. Consumers and quartz industry reps have told of areas under toasters, cannisters or flower pots showing up as dark foot prints due to fading or yellowing the surrounding areas, leaving the spot under the item unchanged.
Consumer comments about quartz
From Apartmentthrerapy.com
We have had Caesarstone Black Honed for 5 months in our kitchen now and it has been one big mistake. Ãts turning into a vague shade of blue and you see stains whenever you touch it with a fingertip. It seems the polished ones are better and I really regret not having chosen it.
We were told by our kitchen store (in the Netherlands) the honed black would be perfect, instead of Belgian hardstone. Well, it’s not posted by Eugenie on 2005-11-25 17:30:05
Has anyone heard the rumor that Caesarstone, the company, have you sign a disclaimer when you buy their Lagos Blue stone because of problems with dulling and, more importantly, easy scratching? We scratched a store sample and it took no effort at all, really worrying for wear in a kitchen. Anyone had this experience?
Marlene posted by Marlene Berry on 2005-12-28 11:46:23
My grandparents currently have Silestone countertops in their kitchen. They were installed in the fall of 2004. Within the last month, my grandmother dropped a tea saucer at the edge. The edge chipped and the dish broke into many pieces. We assummed the dish hit the edge just right. Last week, a juice glass fell out of its packaging as she was picking it up. The lass fell on its side. The glass did not brake but the Silestone chipped at the edge. The glass did not even hit the edge. We called Silestone and were told it does not warranty against impact. I do not consider either of these instances abuse or unusual use of the product in the kitchen setting. Read the warranty carefully. At this rate, my grandmother’s counters will look like someone went down them with a chisel before the 10 year LIMITED WARRANTY runs out. posted by Tracy Slough on 2006-02-06 15:30:13
have had cesearstone counters for 3 years. I am unhappy with the appearance. Can anyone tell me what product to use on it so I can bring back some of the shine. It is very dull, and looks like it has not be cleaned. My husband is always complaining that it doesn’t look clean. Please help. posted by Donna on 2006-11-22 20:22:26
We put in the Caesarstone about a year ago. We wanted the honed dull look which we like alot. My wife has been having some problems with stains near the sink and we are wondering if its more from the harder water than anything else. The water causes etching on our glasses in the dishwasher. She was wondering what household or other products she should use on the counters. posted by WWW on 2007-02-25 16:18:28
Has anyone had any experience with Caesarstone – the Ebony Reflections color which is black with flecks of mirror mixed into it. When direct light is NOT on it – it has a stunning “Midnight stary sky” appearance. The problem is, I’ve only had it for about 3 mos and about 1 mo. ago I noticed some of the mirrors have dislodged from the surface. The more I look, the more I find. The company is coming out to replace and swears this has never happened before. I want to know if I should trust them, and replace it with the same product – or just start over and choose granite. I want the black with reflective particles in it somehow. I am also a bit dissappointed in the dull appearance the Caesarstone gives when light shines on it. I want that midnight sky look all the time but that’s just not so. posted by Linda on 2007-03-12 13:22:13
for what it’s worth – I’ve been told by more than one company that ALL the Quartz is processed the exact same way by “one rich guy” and just stamped with a different brand name on it. Judging by the latest dog food contamination…where the cheap store brand AND the name brands are both being recalled by ONE manufacturer, I tend to agree. So it boils down to customer service on warranty. So far, Caesarstone seems to be okay but I’m still going through the process of dealing with the mirror chips coming out and whether it’s “repairable” or replacement.
However, to GAIL — the Stellar Night is the Silestone version of what I have in Ceasarstone and if you are looking for a brilliant sparkle affect – it will be AS LONG AS THERE IS NO DIRECT LIGHTING ON IT. The counters look stunning with the lights off but milky with the lights on. That is 100% because of the way they combine the polyester binding with the Quartz. All manufacturers do this process the same way and it will look the same. In the stores, they know how to shine the lights on the samples to keep them brilliant – once you get it home, forget it. Unless you do like I do whenever possible and keep my kitchen dark! Good Luck!
posted by Linda on 2007-03-22 10:08:50
Warranty issues
Manufactures warrantee sheets limit coverage for staining, heat damage, cracking and scratching. In short, quartz is a countertop choice, but far from the ideal top .
Here is the Hanwah warranty:
‘This Residential Limited Warranty for Hanstone Quartz Surfaces does not cover:
Failure to comply with Hanwha’s recommended storage, handling, usage, fabrication/installation guide, and care & maintenance guidelines. .
Fabrication or Installation Error.
Damage caused by accidents, abuse, misuse, and exposure to extreme heat, act of nature, job-site conditions or structural movement.
Installed Hanstone Quartz Surface product that is removed from their original place of installation.
Seam Appearance.
Supplemental repair including, but not limited to electrical, tile or wall surfaces, and plumbing modifications, necessary to repair Hanstone .
Product usage for commercial application(s) including but not limited to, installation in store, office or other place of business.
Minor conditions such as stains or water spots “
I don’t know if seam appearance covers the seam separating or if it is just excludes an ugly seam, and the act of nature clause might give them an out on any UV damage.
In the end, if the installer signed a statement that says the seams will be warrantied, you are okay regarless as long as he is in business. And the debacle with Wilsonart SSV proves that if a massive failure happens, the lawyers will get rich in a class action lawsuit while the consumer gets 10 cents on the dollar for their worthless countertop.
Conclusions
Is it beginning to make sense why solid surface is preferable over so many other materials? It is a safe investment and has reached commodity status, lowering the prices into almost anyones price range
al wrote
Karl,
What kind of acid did this? Something present in the average household or was there something unusual about the type and amount of acid that did the damage?
Thanks,
Al
Battery Acid for the sons remote control car that was charging on the counter
QUOTE]Andy wrote
Great looking repair. Was it just sanded down past the acid etching?[/QUOTE]
Gordon wrote
Yea, Karl, was that a sand out or did you cut and paste?
Andy, Gordon…..
This was repaired with a bit of both and more
Ouch, who would have thought…. Not many counters will take that. The 100% polyesters are supposed to be near acid resistent, aren’t they? Or so I was told….
Al, I wrote most of this last night, but FabNet was crapped on my computer for awhile and I couldn’t post it.
By volume, quartz is around 65% quartz and 35% solid surface resin.
Good paragraph, and it’s nice to see this in words. Probably one of the biggest, most unnecessary pieces of spin I’ve ever seen in a product. Somehow, it must of occured to somebody, that you are putting yourself knowingly, in a position of someday having to say “Technically, we weren’t lying.” It’s not stone, get over it already.
I’m still reading it as I type, but I’m really impressed so far. You have a bit of editing, and other technical issues, but, depending on the intended audience, it is quite good.
If it is meant for public consumption as a fact sheet, it might be too detailed, even though it is more comprehensive in including it. If you lose your audience, you lose your message.
If it is for an online article then you should embed links where appropriate. It serves as a living footnote. Also, do a “Print Screen” on each page that might be removed by management for, I don’t know, whatever reason, and save it as a page in the SSA site. This way you can always have a link for the page as it existed when you wrote the article.
If it is for a page on SSA, it’s pretty darn good as it is, but you will need to balance it out with the same tone of essay on the other major materials. Again, embedded links, as with an online article. It really can blunt an attack from a credibility angle. You anticipated the doubt, and provided your source on the claim. That’s about as solid as it gets.
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If it is for a print magazine, it’s a bit harsh, and possibly too technical (but I may be wrong on that last one). It says the right things, but again, if you lose the audience, you lose your message. You’ll need to footnote it as well. If you ask, I wonder if Kevin would mind editing it for you.
You need a few CYA moments, such as saying that the lung disease from silicosis has been ‘shown to lead to cancer’, ‘or may cause cancer’, rather than “leading to cancer”.
This paragraph:
Pitts,voids, inclusions like washers, nuts, even rubber gloves are common in quartz, some brands allow defects up to the size of a quarter, other brands even more as long as all of them are contained within one quardrant of the sheet. This is a major problem when estimating and ordering material, how many sheets will it take when you don’t know how you are going to cut around the defects?
Seems to be two separate approaches to the same kind of defect. They should be separated. Contamination by foreign object, and defect (I’m not even sure contamination would apply here), by mistake in production. The quadrant thingy needs to be watched closely, because if they become embarrassed enough to rescind that piece of crap idea, you will need to remove it post-haste. I got your six, bro.
You need to do some CYA to make sure you throw in “at the time this is written” kind of soft disclaimers.
One of the speakers ideas was that you would never repair the damage good enough to make it not be noticed, since the consumer knew where the damage was. His method was to fix the repair, then move a few feet away and start wiping the top with a polishing cloth, while calling the consumer in to look at the repair, pointing to the undamaged spot.
Get out, really?
no he di-int.
Anyway, there ain’t no repairing like solid surface. I’ve seen some awesome repairs, but only solid surface can compare ‘repair‘ to ‘ not happening in the first place‘.
In the end, if the installer signed a statement that says the seams will be warrantied, you are okay regarless as long as he is in business. And the debacle with Wilsonart SSV proves that if a massive failure happens, the lawyers will get rich in a class action lawsuit while the consumer gets 10 cents on the dollar for their worthless countertop.
Careful, it’s a fair shot, but kind of a rabbit punch. I don’t think the jab adds to the debate. Funny as it is. Really. I’m not sure I agree with the first statement either. You might say “if a reputable installer signed a statement…”.
Much of the consumer testimonials need to be trimmed, etc. You have to be careful doing this in that you run the risk of being acused of “cherry picking” the info, but it’s pretty long-winded by the time it gets to them.
If we can make this consumer friendly, I am so ripping it off for my fact sheet. Three more, if you please. Okay, two, if you don’t want to touch laminate. This is written with a more “debunking” attitude than would be good for a consumer info sheet.. With footnotes/links, it becomes a solid body as a project or article.
Pretty good, Al.
Tom M wrote
Karl,
I heard about this one before. Was it here in the Forums or was the job local to New England?
Tom this job was in CA, we are seeing more and more of this type of thing. It’s only natural as Quartz has been so popular the past few years.
Tom M wrote
One of the speakers ideas was that you would never repair the damage good enough to make it not be noticed, since the consumer knew where the damage was. His method was to fix the repair, then move a few feet away and start wiping the top with a polishing cloth, while calling the consumer in to look at the repair, pointing to the undamaged spot.
Get out, really?
no he di-int.
LOL YES he did eather I was at the same show or he does that at every show LOL
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