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Posts
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Tom,
No, he came here to pick a fight. I know this dude from the SFA site.Here is a threat from the guy.
Now again, this issue is germane to this discussion. If Issfa or anyone else is so interested in setting standards and getting dangerous products off the market, why do those trying to do just that face such tactics? Why are the majority silent?
I am going to make an effort to gather what is left of the solid surface industry. Perhaps what I will find is that the solid surface industry is getting what it deserves in the way of leadership. All that I can say is that I did try.
Al, I asked for your opinion and you have given it. Thank you.
ISSFA is not asking for your money or your support. It is only looking to bring together like-minded individuals who think they can make a positive difference in the industry. Single issue fascinations are pretty much out of the scope of our mission.
its funny because i get asked that all the time by customers. and it is a simple but complicated question. i fabricate every thing but concrete and thats just because there has been no market for it here. i tell people that all materials have different strengths and weaknesses. so what makes a good counter top is what fits your life style. solid surface can be re surfaced relatively easy and cheep but lacks the natural beauty and strength of stone. engineered stone offers the uniformity of solid surface with some of the strengths of stone. i have in my area seen a dramatic drop off in the solid surface industry and a dramatic increase in stone and engineered stone products. as well as green products
Al,
As long as someone contributes to the discussion in a respectful manner ON THIS SITE, what he says on another site is not relevant.al i have been here for a long time and i have been watching you for a long time as well. and for the record i was an ISSFA member way before i was ever a stone person. i have watched you get booed off of the inspectors forum and i have read many other articles and bleeps where your misleading information has been de bunked. you don’t know me al don’t pretend to. i dont care if it’s granite, engineered stone , solid surface, wood, glass or any other surface if it is a potential risk to my customers i will not sell or stand by it. sile stone has more of a risk with micro ban in it a known pesticide than granite ever will. stone makes up a only a portion of what i sell. its very disheartening to see you going around after hours or on week ends to play with your giger counter in slab yards and other respectable businesses. if you could see the actual fool you have made of your self you may decide to change your out look a little bit. once you have damaged your reputation its near impossible to restore it. wake up al your in a fight you can not win because the hard evidence proves you wrong and nothing you have would even stand up in a court of law
Eli and Al,
Please take your fight somewhere else. This thread was started to discuss impending changes in ISSFA.
Russ
Linda,
I posted a link to where Politefab was anything but polite and was making threats along with the usual suspects. Are you expecting me to treat him like he was an unbiased poster? Don’t you think that when someone takes a stance his reputation is important?
Russ,
This isn’t the Issfa BB. You want to be the Issfa spokesperson, so answer the questions presented. You are being given a great opportunity here to show what Issfa can do to bring togther the industry, especially with this issue.
Here is your first challenge. Polite fab doesn’t believe there is an issue with some granites, despite his involvement in the Dark Room over at the SFA site, so he attacks those that are working on the problem. As an association that plans on representing all materials and all fabricators, how is Issfa going to deal with this?
If a product is suspected of being dangerous, will the “new” Issfa take a stand?
How will you deal with competing interests between the products and fabricators?
A question to all the members of Fabnet. Has Fabnet been able to deal with this issue effectively? Was the problem dealt with openly and without rancor? If not, how is possible for Issfa to charge dues and truly represent all products?
So.
Is this some kind of record for major thread derailment or what?Eli, okay, you think one of the main disadvantages of solid surface as compared to other premium materials is looks. Ok, I can respect that. I disagree, but there it is.
Al, you think every thread needs to revolve around radon in granite.
No, you really don’t. That was my mistake and I apologize for it.It just seems like you do.
Posted By politefab on 09/28/2008 10:26 PM
al i have been here for a long time and i have been watching you for a long time as well. and for the record i was an ISSFA member way before i was ever a stone person. i have watched you get booed off of the inspectors forum and i have read many other articles and bleeps where your misleading information has been de bunked. Really? More like I asked one or two liars over there to back up their claims. If you read that thread, the inspectors and I finally argeed that the issue has got to be addressed or specifically exempted from their inspections.Now, please provide one example of any misleading information I have posted or hang your head in shame.
This isn’t stoneadvice politefab. This forum is populated by a lot of solid surface shops and they are far different than the stone fabricators. Here BS is called BS no matter who posts it and if you think you are going to make claims and not get called on it, you are mistaken.
you don’t know me al don’t pretend to. i dont care if it’s granite, engineered stone , solid surface, wood, glass or any other surface if it is a potential risk to my customers i will not sell or stand by it. Then why aren’t you wanting granite tested? High levels of Radon and radiation have been proven in some granites, and all are now suspect until tested. If your SFA leaders have acknowledged that some are so hot they need boxed up and buried, why are you now picking a fight?
sile stone has more of a risk with micro ban in it a known pesticide than granite ever will. Prove it, show me one study where Silestone has been found to be a health risk.
stone makes up a only a portion of what i sell. its very disheartening to see you going around after hours or on week ends to play with your giger counter in slab yards and other respectable businesses. Respectable businesses don’t sell radioactive products to unsuspecting families, especially once it has been pointed out to them. A Bordeaux was found lately that hit 520 uR/hr, .5 mR/hr, a seriously hot granite and that was just the Gamma radiation from the stone. This seller had already sold a consumer a hot slab, but when asked about it, they denied selling the slab despite the canceled check and reciept. The picture should be attached. I have a picture of the label with the customes name that bought the slab as well. Should someone warn the family?
if you could see the actual fool you have made of your self you may decide to change your out look a little bit. once you have damaged your reputation its near impossible to restore it. ELi, one of your leaders said that you guys could no longer claim that there was not a problem, he said the media would eat your lunch and you would be called liars. Now I see you claiming my reputation is damaged in some manner for exposing the problems. How do you explain this dicotomy?
wake up al your in a fight you can not win because the hard evidence proves you wrong and nothing you have would even stand up in a court of law Well, to belabor the point, that isn’t what the SFA leaders told you guys. They talked about being sued for everything you have, homes, shops, bankruptcy being the only out, when a hot stone is found by a home inspector. Again, why do you continue to stick to this claim that there are no problems?Russ,
you see what will happen when an issue like this pops up. In this case, what would issfa do?Can you as an organization just stay neutral and let the members duke it out?
Will you have any leagal responsiblity to keep members abreast of controversies on materials?
What if Eli manages to find some proof that Silestone has a problem with their microban products?
Will products that carry potential health risks sully the reputation of Issfa if they represent them?
This is crucial, Russ, how can a single organization represent granite, solid surface, and quartz? I got that quatz and solid surface were close cousins, mainly because of certification and testing.
I’m listening Russ, but I don’t hear any answers from you yet.
You are the spokesperson for Issfa, right?
Posted By Tom M on 09/28/2008 11:12 PM
So.
Is this some kind of record for major thread derailment or what?Eli, okay, you think one of the main disadvantages of solid surface as compared to other premium materials is looks. Ok, I can respect that. I disagree, but there it is.
Al, you think every thread needs to revolve around radon in granite.
No, you really don’t. That was my mistake and I apologize for it.It just seems like you do.
Tom,
I rarely say this, but you are completely wrong in this instance.If the thread was derailed (and it wasn’t), politefab derailed it. But he didn’t, he brought up that the esscence of an organization which is to represent it’s members. Now, who is Issfa planning on representing? The actual fabricators, as in the guys running the sanders and grinders? The shop owners? The manufacturers?
If it is the fabricators, what about health risks? Why aren’t they in the middle of this issue and helping find the answers?
There have been inumerable threads on product comparisons and charts, and we all know it is ridiculous to think that a single chart would be agreed on by the different material fabricators. We also know that granite is the crack of the countertop world, profitable, easy to sell, and the profits have saved a lot of shops over the years.
But, along with the granite comes a host of issues on safety of both consumer and fabricator. So I ask again, how will this new Issfa deal with representing a product known to have potential risks? Will bringing in granite sully the reputation of quartz and solid surface?
Yeah, he provided the match.
To be fair, I opened the book.
You struck without closing the cover.Can we get back to the original point?
Why doesn’t everybody just wait and see what Russ has in store. I trust Russ and if thinks we need to wait and see than that’s what I’am going to do. One thing I do know I don’t want ISSFA to be a Radon threat machine.Simply promote SS or what ever other surface they will be representing for there good qualities. Why do we think that to promote our product we need to tear another down?Russ looking forward to seeing what changes happen at ISSFA.Eli:
It is good to see you here. I have read your technical posts and seen your pictures on stoneadvice and was very favorably impressed.
The Fabnet will benifit from your perspective, so please stick around.
Joe
P.S.:
I value your opinion, so please check out my estone repairs and let me know what you think: http://www.thefabricatornetwork.com/Forum/tabid/164/forumid/157/tpage/2/view/Topic/postid/253993/Default.aspx
Although this thread is about ISSFA changes, it seems to appropriate to talk a little about some recent events as it is indicative of the current spirit at ISSFA.
At the recent regional meeting Todd Werstler announced that ISSFA was successful in getting a solid surface specification guideline added to AWI’s (Architectural Woodworking Institute) specification guide. This is a big deal. For those of you who do commercial work you probably still see solid surface countertops specified as 3/4″, which means extra work in educating the GC and/or architect and making sure your quote includes the proper list of exclusions. With the correct spec in the new guide, that problem should begin to go away.
Lenny can speak to this better than I, but it is hard to appreciate the kind of work that goes into getting a product specification adopted. I was amazed to watch the process in the days when Lenny was with ISSFA and actively working with ISO (I think that’s who it was. Is that right , Lenny?) to get an international spec adopted. It was a years-long process that included extensive peer reviews and required developing relationships with scientists around the world who would assist in moving the process forward. Unfortunately, after several years of effort Lenny left the association and the effort was stopped dead in its tracks.
Getting the AWI to adopt specification standards for solid surface wasn’t nearly the effort Lenny was involved in, but it still required many hours of labor donated by members of an ISSFA committee tasked to complete the job. In many ways it was a labor of love, since most people in the industry don’t even know who was on the committee or even that it created such a benefit for the industry. Thus, whether you belong to ISSFA or not, sometime in the future architects will begin using the AWI specification guide to properly call out solid surface in their projects.
It’s a small thing that will have a lasting positive effect on our industry.
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