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Posts
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I will do a 2″ edge about 90% of the time.. I just like the feel of only touching SS when I grab the edge. I will go a little less if I need to get a wider backsplash. I even go wider on the bar overhang.
Al, I cut my tops 1/4 oversize. I will have the top perfect shape to receive buildup. I’m not sure what you mean by keeping the buildup lined up? I lay the first buildup down and let it overlapped about 1/8 and clamp it in a few places. I then hot glue 3/4″ x3/4″ blocks with just the corner touching the edge. Placing these about 18″ apart, this is what holds your buildup in place when you clamp. . I do 1 layer at a time, unless it is a small simple top. These blocks will support your 2nd layer too.
Has your new guy heard of templating? I have never had to take a top off of cabinets to resize. It always fits like it grew there. If it doesn’t someone didn’t template correctly. I also will cut a 3/16″ relief cut up on the back to about 2 inches from the exposed end. This will take care of any crooked studs, unless my template shows otherwise. If you have any questions drop me an email, I’ll send you my phone# KC
Hi KC. We do both layers at once, really have to hump it in hot weather. Our thinking is that there is more pressure on the seam when the clamps are open to 1.5″ than at 1″. We will do one layer when a new guy is starting out or on a complicated build up or a very large island where we need to consider glue open time. I’ve tried the blocking on the back side. Slows me down, but it might be a good idea for the employees.
Good idea on the 3/16″ back cut, we need to start doing that.
New guys and templating…. Most of the shops around here have little turnover, so experienced help is hard to come by. One big shop recently changed owners, from a long time fabricator to more of a business man approach. Their way is to assembly line the process, training a guy in one job only. I can see it keeps costs down in the begining and might get the guy making you money faster, and it keeps future competition down, but it leaves these employees knowing a lot about a little.
Thanks for the offer of help. I’ll email you and swap numbers.
I can do 2 layers on some very small jobs, but with an inside corner, I don’t see how you do it. I use a 3x 5 block for the inside corner and will overlap them, so doing 2 layers like this is impossible or so risky of not getting lined up. I bet you spend more time trying to align the strips, than it would take to apply the mdf blocks. After the strips are cut and precise fit is made, I’ll put all the blocks on in a couple of minutes. Clean the strips, apply the glue and clamp, just make sure your first few are applied as to push against a joint, then go as fast as you can. The strip won’t move. We learned quickly the angle of releasing the clamp will either push or pull the strip. With the right technigue, every clamp pushes towards the back. You have a even overhang. Flip the top, cut the excess off with the top bearing bit, start sanding.
Whether the clamp is open 1/2″ or 1 1/2″ doesn’t matter. As long as a minimum pressure is attained, and a Pony clamp will not exceed the max either, so either way they do what they do.
Norm,
I meant to say top bearing bit, we also cut with the deck side up. My fabricators take a sharp chisel and clean the glue off the edge of the deck before they flush trim, works pretty well.
Al,
Yes we do have a cnc, and you are right we do start with a perfect edge and it makes all the difference in the world. But we did do the same method before the cnc we just made sure we had a good edge before we did the build up. We also use little blocks behind the build up to keep the build up in place while gluing, and we glue both layers at the same time.
Shane
My guys feel the same way and have trouble doing two layers at once. Corners usually start with a couple of 6 x 9 blocks, reversing so the seams are overlapped three inches. I start at the inside corner and work toward the shortest run first. We mark the inside edge of the template which is the same as the inside edge of the build up strip so we have a line to keep things straight. Avonite taught that same trick of dropping your hand or rasing it, or tipping it from side to side to push the buildup to where you need it to be. We use vertical clamps as well, something most of the new guys haven’t done before.
I let the guys use the blocks, but for me I just make sure the joints are pushed up tight against each other and the stack is on the line. I can do a top in half the time that my guys can do it in, except for one guy we had that was pretty fast too. Mainly, do what you are paid to do and nothing you aren’t paid to do. The basic of lean manufacturing. To each his own, I guess. I rarely have a dry seam or void but when I am gluing a build up, I am not available for anyone or anything short of large amounts of blood being involved. I do suspect that your manner of blocking leaves less to trim off.
One of the new guys mentioned doing what you talk about, except using an 1/8″ rabbeting bit to cut a rabet into the top, then using a top bearing flush trim router bit. I am going to let him do one on the next small vanity we do, after he learns to do the job our way.
Does everyone hand mix two lines of glue before spreading it with a popsicle stick, or just run two lines and clamp it up? Spacing between clamps?
Al, I don’t spread the glue with anything, I just apply a decent size bead towards the front edge. I am in Florida and know about racing the adhesive on a large top. I have been using the adhesive straight out of the refrigerator to give me a little more time. I have been advised by adhesive reps that it doesn’t mix well in the tip at cold temperatures, although I haven’t had a problem with it. Also if you clamp the edge more towards the front of the build up it will ensure proper adhesive distribution and no chance for an adhesive line to show. At one time I was having problems with adhesive lines until a Hi Macs rep told me to pull my clamps back more, the problems were eliminated.
One thing about chiseling off adhesive to use a top bearing bit, definately wear safety glasses, that stuff is worse than routering, and gloves are not a bad idea especially when the chisel slips off and your hand becomes shreaded wheat.
al wroteDoes everyone hand mix two lines of glue before spreading it with a popsicle stick, or just run two lines and clamp it up? Spacing between clamps?
One line of glue down the middle and I make sure is squezzes (sp) out.
Spacing between clamps is about 2″
Our shop is decked out with Festool products and for the most part we love them. We prefer the Bosch jig saw and the PC router over the same for Festool but the Rotex sander and the saws with the guide rail system are invaluable. I noticed someone asked about cleaning your edges using the saw and guide rail system. We use it to clean the edges and it works great and goes quickly. We have three different lengths of the guide rail so it covers any top we build. The bottom of the guide rail has rubber strips that hold the rail in place so we don’t clamp it down. The only negative is cutting that close to the edge the vac doesn’t pick up most of the dust for some reason.
We have also found the CT 22 to be the best vac to use for the shop and on the jobsite.
Al,
We never have spread our glue unless we are gluing up a very large piece. Do you spread out your glue? I was taught to place the clamps as close as your hand will allow, however my fabricators place them a little further apart. Edges come out good so I leave them alone.
Shane
One of my handicaps is having only avonite training, so I might be doing some unnecessary work. They taught to run two lines, then quicky mix the two lines using a circular motion. The idea is that if you have a bubble in the hardner/catylist you will get a little by the mixing of two lines. I hear other shops complianing about bad glue cartridges all the time, we have had three in six years and all had leakage stains. Has anyone ever ran a seam or build up and had it cure at an uneven rate, hard in places and soft in others?
The spreading was taught as well, to keep dry seams down, I guess. We set the clamps at 2.5″ between clamps, probally 3 to 3.25″ center to center. At corners, deeper corner blocks get as many clamps as we can fit on. There was some conflicting info at avonite, different opinions on clamp spacing. The polyester K3 and glass series needs some pretty good glue lines, not starved and not thick, thus their advocating spacing clamps on a consistant spacing. However, some of the avonite people claimed that over clamping would starve the seam of glue, something I have read about online in top seams, but I haven’t figured out if that is allways the case. Someone posted the other day about setting the clamps somewhat forward, that is a good idea as well.
Ditto, Shane. If they are doing a good job I stay out of the way too. I have a husband and wife team that I don’t need to supervise at all, except for providing job specifics and info. Say hello in the morning, and good by after work. If only cloning were legal…..
“Has anyone ever ran a seam or build up and had it cure at an uneven rate, hard in places and soft in others?”
Nooo….never has happened to me. Just kidding, that has got to be a fabricators worse nightmare.
Shane
I consistantly use Integra Adhesives and haven’t had a problem with the soft spots. If it is a concern for some of you I suggest running two smaller beads on top of each other to ensure that doesn’t happen. I don’t do this on build up because it is an easier repair if you have a problem, but I do it on sinks and seams religiously
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