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I got in on this one late but since KC thinks he has the smiley thing cornered, and he does, here’s to you KC.
George, there are many ways to do underlayment, but only an idiot would spend the time and money screwing, doweling or biscuiting an underlayment joint. I noticed you quoted a corian installer, not a fabricator. Yes, there are incompetent and stupid installers just like there are incompetent and stupid customers. You seem to have a talent for finding them, proof in my mind that god exists and gives people what they derserve.
Quote from George on or around august 24th:
“Who am I?
- I am not a person with an “agenda”, other than getting answers with more behind them than “because [“DuPont” or I] told you so. (I’ve never done well with organized religions, either – for the same reason.)
- I am in fact 3/4 of an engineer: three years of Electrical Engineering at the University of Michigan. My degree is in Information Systems Management. Yours?
End quote
Now, another quote from George
“I would also approve of this type of construction. It satisfies my “engineer’s sensibilities” (even though I’m NOT one, and never said I WAS.) If you use this technique, you certainly didn’t say so; and neither did many other posters who described their perimeter support systems.”
George, none of us on this site aren’t customer orientated or we wouldn’t still be in business or banding together to make a better product, but you apparently can’t understand how much time and effort was spent trying to answer your questions. You can’t even keep your story straight about whether you are an engineer or not, perhaps you failed and can’t quite admit it. I guess you have to admit that I saw thru you and called you a half baked engineer and you admit the same.
Don’t worry about ever getting a bid from me or anyone like me, we will see you coming a mile away.
Questions are welcomed from consumers, just respect those who answer them. Now, I feel sorry for you, but just go away.
Al your last post was priceless. Andy we should have hall of fame section. I think George its time to move on. As KC said case dismissed.
Al,
After reading your last post, it took me almost 10 minutes to quit laughing and another 5 minutes to wipe the water from my eyes. I am going to copy and paste it. Then print it out and frame it to hang in our showroom for customers to read.
Mory
Just remember:
(edit by admin)
Now, I have an honest question for Al (and anyone else who would care to respond): how DOES one go about “finding a good fabricator” (per Al’s post on August 23rd)? Who should I talk to or write to? What criteria should I use? Professional certifications? Factory authorizations? References from people who’ve already had work done by this person?
(And my apologies if I’ve confused the terms “fabricator” and “installer”. Upon further reflection, I can see that the person who fabricates the countertop might not necessarily be the same person who comes out to the site to install it. I suppose I would need both a good fabricator AND a good installer!)
gb
Geesh. just spend a half hour reading this thread.. Please George let us know what part of the country your in, you are EXACTLY the type of customer I would refuse to do business with. I bet you always have problems with anyone you hire to do anything.. duh.. whats the common thread? Just as there are bad business people there are bad customers. As you stated you went into this looking for a company with “deep pockets”, that says it all. I have been in the solid surface industry for over 35 years, and have NEVER seen any company endorse a solid substrate for a kitchen top, for all the reasons mentioned. I have an idea, since your smarter than any dumb fabricator, why not fabricate your own, Of course the material would come with no warranty , but since, your smarter than any mfg, you would build the ultimate counter that could never fail, heck you could use it as that bridge you spoke about. You would be just the person to climb on the countertop, crack the top and fall and sue. Because of folks like you they have to put a label on the top step of a ladder to let you know not to go any further.. I bet your a boat load of fun to be around…
Geesh…. I always said we need a “better customer bureau”. To log in bad customers.
Thanks Andy for whatever the edit was above. The cleaner, simpler and more proffesional we can keep this site the better. Don’t hesitate to edit any of us when you need to, I personally can see a need for it. I can also see that you are reluctant to do so. Have you ever looked at Woodweb.com? They clean up posts and offer them as “knowledge articles”, very valuable and consise. Perhaps you could invite a fabricator to write a faq for consumers page, then pass it around or open it up for revision or comment.
Okay, George, thanks to editing, you are being nice and asking reasonable questions and not debating every point. Honest questions will always be welcome if you promise to respect the answers.
Now the first thing you must ask yourself is what is most important, are you looking for “deep, easily reached pockets” so you can sue them if it isn’t 100% perfect? Are you wanting to beat them out of most of the cost of the top in consessions after it is installed? Or do you just want a good top that is made to warantee standards that will last as long as possible? Is price more important than quality? Is it important that the fabricator kisses your tail during the entire process? What is the most important thing? Pick only one, you will have to comprimise on the others.
Finding a good fabricator means visiting their shop and looking at their showroom. Find a fabricator who is like a farmer, he is what he is, he is what he does. His shop may or may not be clean, it might be small or large, highly mechanized or basic hand and bench tools. You will see signs that he is in it for the long term. They might not have a shiny new truck, better equipment might be a higher priority.
Of course you get recomendations from past customers. When we started out, we got lots of requests for references and would give four or five. Now, our reputation,showroom, and shop is impressive enough that we rarely get a request for references, matter of fact, I can’t remember when the last request was. Passion for what you do can’t be faked, it will shine though.
Ask about their certification, if they can sell the stuff, they should be certified. Find out where they received their training, factory, issfa or local seminar. All are okay if they have had a few years experience as a lot of us will butcher our first job and learn the hard way that that instructor knew what he was talking about.
Most manufactures of solid surface will have a website listing local fabricators. In my experience, they won’t put you on the website list right away till you get some experience. Call the local distributor for the product and follow his recomendations on who to use, he might send you to his best customer, but he won’t send you to a troubled shop, he has to deal with the fallout when a top goes bad. Do understand that some companies are better than others about policing the ranks of fabricators. Understand that very few manufactures actually certify by training, some will accept other companies certification.
Check the local small claims court for cases against the company, but understand that sometimes ignorance can cause customers to do stupid things and sometimes the judge is as ignorant as the customer or even that some judges will allways give the customer the benifit of the doubt. If you see a court case, ask the fabricator about it. We will check on customers in the court system if they give off warning signs.&nbs; It has saved us from getting involved with some real crooks.
Once you have chosen a fabricator, trust him. If you don’t trust him then don’t hire him. They will try very hard to give you the best top they can make, but there is no such thing as a perfect top. It might not be exactly what you want if you don’t ask the right questions, but you can bet it will be just like the showroom samples, done in his customary fashion. George, you won’t find perfect in this modern world, you might not even find a good fabricator willing to work for you if you don’t take a hard look at your manner and attitude
Lastly, George, ask simple questions on this or any forum and accept the answers. No one on this forum has any reason to mislead you. Surely you can see that you are a guest on a fabricator forum and need to be appreciative of whatever help or advice is given. Don’t argue with them about their advice, expect other posters to offer valid different veiws based upon different experience, then you decide.
Gee, guys, thanks for the support but I think I just said what we all were thinking. Perhaps this post can be edited down and be required reading before a consumer gets to post a question.
Wags, are you the same Wags that posted on issfa and solid surface geeks? If so you reputation precedes you. Nice to have you on this board.
How about some one starting a thread on difficult customers? Personally, running into a thread like this can be an asset once in awhile. Reminds us to be carefull who we deal with and mabe some advice to get away clean when we don’t catch them in time.
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