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Posts
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FYI: here is the answer I (finally) got back from DuPont on Tuesday:
“
Thank you for your choice in Corian countertops. In regards to your specific installation, we believe the installer has given correct guidance.
The required support for a Corian countertop is perimeter support around the top of the cabinet installation with cross members where there are cutouts or seams in the countertop. Full underayment traps heat in a specific area. If a hot pot or appliance is placed on the countertop,the heat generated by a hot pot or appliance creates a stress in the area where the pot or appliance is placed because the area that gets hot is expanding while the area around it is not. This internal stress caused by the pot or appliance can result in a crack in the area where the pot or appliance is place because the heated area contracts back as it cools and the area around it does not contract. Our testing has shown that drilling holes in a full substrate does not provide enough open area under the countertop to prevent this type of thing from happening. Expansion is also a consideration, but the risk of overheating an area of the countertop is a more significant concern.
In the bar top, the installer has more concern for having people lean on the overhang which could cause it to flex and break. Having a full underlayment in that area provides a more rigid substrate to prevent flexing. Since a bar top is normally not exposed to hot pots or appliances, a full underlayment is acceptable. “
Pretty much lines up with what Gordon said.
Thanks,
George
George,
Great initial question and follow up but you have gotten a little too fired up about being called ignorant. The post about ignorant builders or consumers was right on. Check with Mr. Webster and you’ll see that ignorance isn’t bad, it is simply a lack of knowledge. Clearly most homeowners don’t have a base of knowledge about the fabrication or installlation of SS tops, much as I am mostly ingorant about the genarally accepted principles of accounting or string theory or fluid dynamics theory or macro-level economics.
PS. Mory and Andy, thanks for a great site that doesn’t cost 4 bills a year to follow.
Chris
gshell wrote
Andy,
It was an inconspicuos plug, you have to give me credit for that. 🙂
Gordon,
I loved it. I am waiting anxiously by the phone for your phone call. This will become the only place for you to advertise your industry leading products. I can’t imagine a fabricator on the Network that wouldn’t want to support such a forward thinking company such as EOS. But they just need to know your product is available.
How was that? [EMO]bigsmile.gif[/EMO]
sanitychaser wrote
PS. Mory and Andy, thanks for a great site that doesn’t cost 4 bills a year to follow.
Chris
Your Welcome. Please keep in mind if you would like to give $400 dollars to the “I would love to have more money in my pocket FUND”, please let me know.[EMO]bigsmile.gif[/EMO]
sanitychaser wrote
George,Great initial question and follow up but you have gotten a little too fired up about being called ignorant. The post about ignorant builders or consumers was right on. Check with Mr. Webster and you’ll see that ignorance isn’t bad, it is simply a lack of knowledge. Clearly most homeowners don’t have a base of knowledge about the fabrication or installlation of SS tops, much as I am mostly ingorant about the genarally accepted principles of accounting or string theory or fluid dynamics theory or macro-level economics.
PS. Mory and Andy, thanks for a great site that doesn’t cost 4 bills a year to follow.
Chris
Hi, Sanity,
I do know what “ignorance” means in the dictionary (“disingenuous” too! [EMO]smile.gif[/EMO] ). However, its usage here was inappropriate (or at least, unfortunate):
(1) “Al” definitely had an attitude going (an “agenda”, as some might say.) He seemed to think that hiring an independent fabricator and “listening to his advice” was the cure to anyone’s woes. He also viewed his customers as people who needed to be “shut up”.
(2) Rightfully or not, “ignorant” is usually interpreted as a pejorative in the context of today’s society. That is especially true given the tone of Al’s message. It must be very carefully used in ANY context, and in a Forum such as this one (which, as I pointed out earlier, may very likely be read by Al’s prospective customers), it should not be used at all.
Are you saying, Sanity, that indeed “indepent fabricators” are the answers to all builder’s/consumer’s problems, and that customers should not question what they say?
Curious,
George
Oops! I didn’t notice that “Sanity” did sign with his real name, Chris. How ignorant of me!
[EMO]embarrassed.gif[/EMO]
I should have used your name in my post, instead of “Sanity”. Sorry, Chris!
George
Hey geebee glad to see you have found some closure to your questions. I guess you didn’t have an agenda. I could have sworn I’ve met you somewhere. You seem very familiar to someone I know. Well I am sure we’ll see you around. Have a good weekend
Thanks, Jon! I’ll be working through the weekend, as usual these days…
I’m on the opposite coast from you (California), but hey – we could have met. I tend to be unforgettable…
BTW: ANOTHER nice web site at http://www.sterlingsurfaces.com.
AND: Andy and Gordon – get a room, you two!
[EMO]tonguestickout.gif[/EMO]
George
George,
Of course I didn’t say that consumers should trust anyone without questioning them. My panties got in a wad over the reaction to the word ignorant.
The “in the context of todays society” line is what I struggle with. At the end of the day words have meanings. Period. Just because someone says something over, and over, and over again doesn’t make it correct.
Agendas are OK they just lay out what you plan to do,
We do not live in, nor do we want a democracy in the US,
Ignorance is simply lack of knowledge,
Everyone discriminates daily, from who to hire to what socks to wear,
ok, sorry about that Rant is officially over, by the way did you really sign off your last post as Curios, George
( I have a 3yr old)Chris
sanitychaser wrote
George,Of course I didn’t say that consumers should trust anyone without questioning them.
Oh, good – so you AGREE with me!!
X-P
And yes, I did sign my post that way; would you call that “ironic”?? (Certainly “appropriate”, at least!)
I’ve heard them all, throughout my life:
Georgie-Porgie
Curious George
George of the Jungle
Big George (6′ 8″, remember)
Just don’t call me late for dinner!
GB
Geoge, George,George…….
I was at Atlanta last week, IWF, and too busy this week catching up on business to check the postings, but it seems that other professionals have did their best to defend my post and explain it to you.
The trouble with the internet is that emotion is absent. No body laungage or facial expression comes through.
My first post was intended as helpful, nothing more. Now you have shown your colors to all who took the time to help you. You brag about your education, challenging others while ignorant of their own college degrees…. And you are an expert in so many areas, including businness and public relations, how gratefull we poor dumb craftsmen are for your presence on this site.
Now, one big question– What to engineers use for birth controll?
Their personalities!!!!!
Your being an engineer is not unexpected. I have dealt with dozens in my life, quite a few as friends,a few as customers, working for them, paying the salary of a few, hiring and firing them. As a group they, like other trades, seem to attract a certain kind of person, arrogant, anti social, ignorant of much besides their narrow slice of education, unable to give others credit because in their mind it detracts from their own self worth. Most try very hard to project an impression of perfection, while actuallly fighting deep, deep seated self hate. One of the higher rates of suicide, I might add and usually controll freaks that make their families unhappy as well.
I noticed that one of your reasons for picking sears was “deep, easily reached pockets”. Are you setting up for a lawsuit or trying to get a decent countertop for a fair price? I know that sears has already screwed you over on price, probaly two to three times what an independent fabricator would charge, but this is because of your foolishness in not checking around.
Whew! that felt good, now I will attempt to answer your rant for the benefit of the other posters, as I know attempting to reason with you is futile.
I think that most normal people do trust others, otherwise society would fail. One red flag when interveiwing customer is lack of trust, if they aren’t capable of trust, they usually aren’t trustworthy themselves.
It took three or four pages of patient, un biased replies before I got involved. You kept rejecting any and all opinion in favor of your ignorance, even when all politely told you that you were wrong and the fabricator was telling you the truth!
Most repair guys will tell you that 90% of the repairs are caused by fabricator not follwing the rules and most will also tell you that the manufatures give a lot of benifit of the doubt. Sears is charging you at least double for that safety!
You are right that their are shoddy people in all trades, after all engineers were responsible for one or more of the space shuttle disasters. An inteligent person will research a companies background before signing a contract. If you would have checked sears on the internet you would have found many, many complaints, You are correct that a full sheet with large cutouts would be stronger, but only an engineer with very little experience in building anything would think that it would be practical to make that way. Most of us that care just overlap the joints and understand how strong that makes it. Only your arrogance and ignorance makes you think otherwise even after many proffesinals have told you otherwise!
Now, after questioning Duponts expertise, you quote them! And incorrectly at that ! I have a complete corian fabrication manual. Nowhere does it say or show in any way that it is okay to not put in center supports. Again, with a little info, you know more than anyone else in the industry!
Good contractors don’t mind a lot of questions, it is a way to head off problems in advance. However, some ignorant, half baked engineer, outside his alledged area of expertise running his mouth gets quite old. Most of us aren’t bothered by questions but idiots aren’t suffered well. And as far as trusting an independent fabricator, you asked us for advice, you fool. I doubt that any of us will work for sears due to the huge cut they get out of the top. In our area, working for a big box store or sears is done only by the very large mills that crank out tops as fast and as cheap as they can. The best work comes from the individual or small shop that can controll all aspects of the job.
As far as advice given to me or anyone else, who asked you for advice? Our credentials are plain, who are you to give advice outside of your alledged feild?
As far as calling you ignorant in the first post, I wasn’t, but am now. Of course you took offense, you are ignorant about solid surface and can’t stand that others know what you don’t. How sad! In addition, you are an expert in all feilds, including english, launguage, psycology, even dictionaries!
Now, please Andy, can we figure out a way for customers to ask questions without the rest of us dealing with the occasional idiot? This is your baby, you make the rules, but wouldn’t it be better to not to have to wade through all this?
Hello Al,
Your post was perfect. It is too bad it took you so long to post it. This site is to help others. Every once in a while we will have the post that never dies. BUT, this post will help others in the future, so don’t feel like it is a waste.
I would love for us not to have to deal with the same person posting a never ending battle of I’m right and you are wrong, but I am hoping that is like you said “occasionally”.
Outstanding! I like your style. Nothing like someone beating a dead horse. It ain’t brain surgery George. Good luck with the top though.What kind of caulk are you gonna use on the top of the splash. That could rock your world!
Geez, I thought this issue was dead a LONG time ago. But no, Al has to get in the last poke. I’m glad it felt good for you, Al. After all, this IS “the FABRICATOR’S network” – you SHOULD be given the last vituperative rant. And you’re certainly entitled to not concern yourself with a CUSTOMER’S perspective.
I could answer every issue you raised, Al, but I’m not going to. It appears that I’m on the thin edge of being censored by Andy. And I would like to be able to continue to ask questions of this forum. (However, if you want to take it up with me off-forum, you can ask Andy for my email address. He has my permission to give it to you.)
I would just like to post a few things, which (to the best of my abilities) I will keep to only FACTS.
First, the following quote from a portion of the Corian Installation manual (section 9.2, to be exact), which (out of all of you), ONLY Gordon (Gshell) took the time to fax to me:
“All Solid Sheeting (Routed Ladder System)
* moisture-resistant M.D.F. board
* moisture-resistant plywood
1. Measure material to length and width from template (remembering to modify width to accommodate buildup, reinforced seams, etc.)
2. Mark on solid core sheets all sink and cooktop cutouts, as well as all divisional supports and seam reinforcement.
3. Using the markings created in Step 2, draw a frame plan on the solid core sheet.
4. Using a 3-hp router with a single-flute plunge bit and premade router guides (templates), rout out the appliance cutouts and the routed stiles
to form a ladder frame structure, and notch front and back rails to accept reinforcement strips. A C.N.C. router can also be used to form this type of ladder frame.”
… which is EXACTLY the solution you dismissed in your post, and (coincidentally) the solution _I_ figured out for myself (with the help of some members of this Forum). The method you briefly described (“…just overlap the joints…”) is, in fact, NOT a Corian-approved method (as far as you described it.) At minimum, for the construction you described, Corian requires (again quoting from the manual):
” Seam the stiles using wooden biscuit seams, serrated dowels, or rabbeted seams screwed and glued.“
I would also approve of this type of construction. It satisfies my “engineer’s sensibilities” (even though I’m NOT one, and never said I WAS.) If you use this technique, you certainly didn’t say so; and neither did many other posters who described their perimeter support systems.
In an update on my situation: I was able to cancel out of my Sears deal, due to their exceptionally shoddy workmanship and bad-faith dealing. I therefore was able to dissect their underlayment, and found that it was merely air-nailed together: no screws, no glue, and certainly no biscuit seams or serrated dowels!
I consulted with a local, independent cabinet-maker and (supposedly) licensed Corian installer. The initial price he gave me was $1500 more than Sears was going to charge (and for LESS square-footage than Sears had quoted on.) He told me that he constructed his underlayment from strips of CORIAN, which he pre-glued to the countertop before it came onsite. He also said that he uses acrylic latex (caulk) to adhere the countertop to the cabinets. At the risk of stating the obvious, neither of these techniques are approved by Corian. And equally obvious, I will not be using HIM to fabricate my countertop.
It just goes to show ya, you can’t necessarily trust even an INDEPENDENT fabricator! (at least, not simply on the basis that they are “independent”.) It’s a good thing that I ask questions. I imagine that, after several more bids, I will have a good “reality check” on what the right price should be. I wish you lived near me, Al; it sure would be interesting to see what YOUR bid would be on this job!
Cheers,
George
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