-
Posts
-
Mark,
I spent an half hour responding, only to have the site eat it because I timed out and needed to log back in.
I will respond tomorrow night, it is late.
Mark,
Most of my opinions of granite came from my research on your site and findstone.com. As to the personalities involved, I like most people could care less or keep up with who wrote what. Really, posting stuff is fun and fine, but to be expected to become famous or something is a bit much.
I do know this about stonegirl, she spreads lies, whether or not she believes them or is just ignorant of the issues, matters not, it just is.
To the matter of why I chose to sell a substandard product. No choice in the matter if I want to sell high end kitchens. We have boxes of solid surface that I know to be substandard sitting out for consumers to see, you never know if they have been looking at a product, but if the have been, they will walk over to the box and I have a chance to tell them the downside of choosing that product. Same thing with granite, by offering it, fabricating it and installing it, I learn more every day of it’s weaknesses and strengths, plus it is okay to knock a product you are selling.
Before I started fabrication of stone, the work would go to one of the local hacks. Crappy seams, poor polish, damaged cabinets, and no sealer was the norm. Plus waiting weeks and weeks for the job to be done. Now I have a better chance of not selling it in the first place, but if the customer just has to have it, I will do a better job, quicker, and the consumer is more likely to be happy with the job.
Your site is pretty good on occasion, but how many times have I seen a dozen stone guys doing their best to prop up the work of a fellow stoner? Some in the debate are honest about shoddy work, others seem to be defending the quality of their own work by backing up the hack that sent the lady to your site looking for answers.
Discrediting stone? As I have said, that info that I post comes from stone sites like yours or is from an unbiased scientific study. It must be effective from your actions of yanking the black list from your site. Sad because it was one of the better things you guys were doing, helping consumers avoid extra costs and bad granite materials.
Bacteria testing being fair, unlike the two studies your industry depends on, the tests that we do will be repeatable, with 100% of the info available so that someone can reproduce the test on their own. And we will not leave out solid surface, as your industry and the steel alliance has done. Or was solid surface included in the tests, but the info supressed? Input from stoners? We will use some of the stones already tested and others that have been untested, and if you guys want to see the protocol in advance, put up half of the money for the test.
Thing is, since the majority of us sell all types of materials, it will be a fair test done in the most accurate manner possible. We will avoid the flaws in the tests that you guys rely on, you can count on that. The sanitzing solution will be one approved for use on the material in the test, no more using vinegar when the industry association warns not to use in on stone. Your materials will be sanitized with your approved cleaning methods and the chips will fall where they may. In other tests, we may use bleach as the sanitizer, and document any sealer or surface damage, and again let the chips fall where they may.
Your last paragraph was the key here to getting along. You point out that both of us are passionate about our trade and are trying to help fellow fabricators do a better job. Great, start by representing your prodct honestly and stop attacking solid surface like it is the biggerst threat to your trade. Melting plastic my ass…
If you notice over at garden web, I leave the soapstone guys alone. They don’t deny their products weaknesses and don’t hammer on quartz or solid surface or even granite. They let the consumer make up their own mind. I have yet to see a soapstone guy spreading lies on his site, but I can take apart the average stone site in an hour with twenty examples of out right lies told and half truths sold as the gospel.
Nothing personal, dude, don’t have a clue what type of advice you personally offer to consumers or whether or not you are one of the ones spreading the lies. I will look for your name on posts and form an opinion by what you have posted in the past and by what you post in the future.
I see that you have plenty of guys attempting to shout down the discussion, why not find one smart enough to debate the issues honestly by using either scientific studies or info from reputable solid surface websites? Look at it this way, competition with solid surface has forced major improvements on your trade, as I refered to in the original post. Once you guys admit to the problem issues with grantie, it might result in better product.
Mark,
Welcome, and thank you for your comment.
I don’t read as much of the other material forums as I used to, but it seems that Al quotes fairly comprehensively, and in context, in his many posts from many of those sites both here and there. Is what he quotes incorrect? If so, you have a duty to correct it. If Al has quoted erroniously, he should be set straighth, so as not to make the same mistakes elsewhere. If the responders disagree with what he says, but his quote is correct, then there must be disagreement with the positions on those other posts and sites. These quotes I have read, many from the MIA itself, seem to belie what Al’s debate partners espouse.
I doubt you will find anyone on these forums claiming that solid surface is the perfection, and stone sucks eggs. Al is famous for touting the bad in solid surface, at least here. The fact that most of us believe solid surface is ultimately the better material is rather obvious, but most of us sell other materials. I sell many laminate tops to my customers, even though it is an inferior product in many ways. Why? Because I have customers who had the same laminate top for thirty or more years, and it makes no sense to try and force them to pay three times what they would be spending on laminate to give them stone, estone, or sol. surface. If your question as to why Al sells stone was rhetorical, my apologies. Raise a flag on it next time.
Most of us here believe that different materials work better for different customers. That does not negate the bad parts about the materials our customers choose to buy. Informing them of the negatives of their choice does not, to me, equate making the sale over the safety of my customers. I take it you disagree with many of Al’s statements. You must, or you wouldn’t throw the ‘money over safety” card at him. Do you fabricate or sell/install any material other than stone or estone?
As for visiting your site, I have done so many times. I have read posts that contradict other posts, much like you can find here. I have not posted anything, but if I do, will I be treated as well there as you will be treated here? Or will I have to deal with passionate experts like stonegirl, or whoever, calling me names because I find her logic limited or lacking? We handle our commenters who cross the line in honest debate. Do you police yours as well?
One thing I have noticed amongst stone forums in general: you have a base of commenters that do not understand much of the fabrication process of other materials. That is not unique, but you add a reluctance to learn and accept the views of others who do or have. That is unfortunate, indeed.
Thank you again for sharing your opinions here. I look forward to hearing from you more in the future. We need good perspective from the hard surface world.
Tom Mather
I had an interesting conversation this morn while on a ferry ride back from Halibut Cove. This gent was a guest at a B&B there. After the small talk he asked what I do, I asked him what he does. ” a geologist for Conoco/ Phillips” he answered. He asked if I did granite and or concrete. No I said but did you know “bla bla bla bla bla ” about granite. I never thought about it he says, you see it for sale so much. He mentioned diferent degrees of radon exist at different levels in different colors of granite. The color pink came up first , high levels of this and that. While letting him try and soak up the senery an marine mammals we could only talk so much and all in 45 min. He actually changed his own opinion of counter materials, we opened each others eyes for sure, his wife wants to remodel their kitchen soon, guess what their going to look at!
it’s made from oil byproducts.FWIW I have found the guys at stoneadvice to be wired very much the same as most of the guys here. Of course there are fringe cases, as you know, there always are. One group just grew up on Fords and the other Chevies. Never the twain shall meet I suppose.
I have recieved more than one offer to visit shops, ride with installers, work on the floor etc.. to improve our knowledge of the trade. They know I am “from” here (the fabnet) , if you will. I kept the same moniker to make it clear that there were no subversive intentions to any questions I might ask. That in and if itself kinda agrravated some of them as they prefer whole names as monikers.
No matter. I sell COUNTERTOPS. And the knowledge that I have gotten from both places would have taken years (not to mention dollars) to learn the hard way. Seriously, thank you to all the fabricators who are passionate about thier trade (and often thier materials) and willing to share ideas about it. Without both sites I would have to break down and get a desk job by now..
Chris
Chris
I agree with you Chris!
I fabricate both stone and SS. I do countertops and I don’t care what you choose as long as its manufactured/fabricated correctly. I’ve learned a lot from both sites and find them both to be thereputic in nature. It lets me know that I’m not alone in this countertop world. I would also like to thank the fabricators who share their knowledge and experiences so that others like myself may learn and sharpen their learning curves.
I also agree with you Chris.
I joined the SFA almost a year ago. There is always going to be bantering between SS and Granite fabricators. The sharing of information over the internet has helped many fabricators, the knowledge available at stoneadvice.com is helpful for anyone considering getting into stone fabrication/installation. The knowledge shared there is of the same quality that is shared here for SS. Look past the joking and bantering ( If it upsets you) If it doesn’t ,have a good laugh. But don’t underestimate the amount knowledge available there. What is offered by experienced fabricators there will educate you and help save you from making COSTLY mistakes. They have a network as good as ours and if you have a problem doing something they will offer you solutions.
I joined the SFA a couple of years back and must say they are doing a great job at teaching hacks how to become pro’s!
I don’t know how many tops we scrapped until they taught us how to top polish not only seams but other little errors like the slips around bowls. Saved us big bucks and many delayed deliveries.
I owe those guys and gals over their big time. I hope you we all register and check out the wealth of information.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.