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Here is a link to a discussion on import blanks, apparentyly they are squeezing out the stone shops on a lot of commericail work.
http://www.stoneadvice.com/forum/thoughts-on-lawsuits-t6958.html
Seems like solid surface would be a lot cheaper to ship, safer too, less damage. Anyone think this is going to happen?
Al, have a Chinese national down the street from us that offered to bring in containers so I could sell blanks…hmmm Not interested, just using me for the customer list and I’m not in the sheet goods biz. He flys home once a month to cut deals. So, he brings them in and sell them. He also brings in solid wood entry doors with leaded glass inserts. Costs him…drum roll please, 5 BUCKS A PIECE!
Ahhh, to be paid 10 cents a day, sleep in the company warehouse and receive a bowl of rice twice a day. Meat added on Fridays.
Interesting, the stone guys are complaining now.. where were they when the automotive industry went overseas and put guys out of work, or when the textile industry went out of business here. Or when the furniture busines less this country. What they are saying is not new, just now its hitting them. The large hotels have purchases Furniture and Fixtures from China for years. I once got a quote on 48″ vanities, bowl cut out (undermount) and splashes for $42 ea delivered.. I couldn’t’ deliver raw sheets of SS for that price. It costs almost nothing to dig it out of the ground, all labor is pennies a day.. what do we expect? And WalMart is one of the main reasons for no textile or shoe industry in this country.. Face it, we make very little in this country anymore… sad huh..
How true Wags. I get bombarded by American companies, importing crap carbide tooling from China. Had a rep in one day, he had a 10″x60T carbide saw blade he was proud to tell me would cost me 4 bucks if I bought 100. “Think of the profit you can make” he said. Took one look at the blade, crappy welds, off center triple chip grind…hell, the plate wasn’t flat.. I told him, yeah, think of the customers I’ll piss of when one of these teeth flys off and hits them in the head.
Ever see the e-bay , but 60 router bits for 49 bucks junk? China. We refuse to sharpen them if they’re presented to us. Utter garbage that could trash a diamond sharpening wheel in a second. I could go on…
Al:
Thanks for the link. I love watching stone guys pi$$ all over each other.
To answer your title question, the solid surface industry has been subject to downward pricing pressure for years. It’s been going on so long, I’m used to it.
When there isn’t any money to be made anymore, I’ll do something else.
Joe
Al, I know you were talking about imported crap, but frankly I’m with Joe.
This is what happens in a free market. I wish I could get the margins I used to. I still fabricate for quality, and that is getting harder and harder every year. Those of us who still make ’em one job at a time have felt the squeeze for quite awhile now.
Tom
Wags wrote
And WalMart is one of the main reasons for no textile or shoe industry in this country.. Face it, we make very little in this country anymore… sad huh..
Nike tried to open a shoe factory in the states and they couldn’t get anyone to work there. Sad that everyone blames Wal-Mart for their problems.
The reason we are in business is because making countertops is not easy. Even if the material was free, it still takes time to fabricate.
And why do we complain about cheap material and then bitch about how much Corian cost? I don’t get it. How many of you have seen the cheap import solid surface? It sucks and it takes longer to fabricate.
Tom M wrote
Al, I know you were talking about imported crap, but frankly I’m with Joe.
This is what happens in a free market. I wish I could get the margins I used to. I still fabricate for quality, and that is getting harder and harder every year. Those of us who still make ’em one job at a time have felt the squeeze for quite awhile now.
Tom
Tom,
You were making higher margins because of supply and demand. The lower margins have nothing to do with the price of solid surface going down. Correct me if I am wrong.
Andy wrote
Tom M wrote Al, I know you were talking about imported crap, but frankly I’m with Joe.
This is what happens in a free market. I wish I could get the margins I used to. I still fabricate for quality, and that is getting harder and harder every year. Those of us who still make ’em one job at a time have felt the squeeze for quite awhile now.
Tom
Tom,
You were making higher margins because of supply and demand. The lower margins have nothing to do with the price of solid surface going down. Correct me if I am wrong.
Andy:
It seems to me that if prices are falling, the only way to keep your margins from falling with them is to increase efficiency. The falling price of solid surface has everything to do with lower margins.
Joe
Andy,
Joe’s got the Reader’s Digest version and I suggest you stop reading here.
Okay?
Good. The longer version follows:
Back in the day, we not only had higher margins, but we also generlized the pricing to be both easier on us and the consumer. We still charge by the linear foot, or a modified version of lin. ft. for peninsulas and islands. Why? When a customer came in with drawings, if one wall was measured at 43″, we priced it at 4 feet, because he might have measured to the face of the splash, or he might not have adequate over hang, etc. No matter. This had him and us covered and it was rare when we would have to tack on additional pricing. We did (and still do) the same for edges, radiused corners and the like.
While I am all for efficiency etc., in the shop, the reason we have to have it is because we are getting undercut by the volume guys and the other efficiency guys. It is smart to become more productive in yoiur time, but if you correspondingly drop your price, you just gave away the extra reward for increasing the stress in your life. Decisions become more and more based on “how much will I have to charge, or lose, if I do this special thing here or that cute add on over there”. This is a premium product and we are treating it like the commodity that the market has turned it into. That’s a sad fact, but a predictable one.
Tom
Ah, but it is not the price of the material the is coming down that cuts into your margins, it is the fact that you have let the competition dictate your prices. You could still charge the same margins if you wanted to, but because the supply side has increase disproportionately to the demand, you are required to lower your margins to stay competitive.
Andy wrote
Ah, but it is not the price of the material the is coming down that cuts into your margins, it is the fact that you have let the competition dictate your prices. You could still charge the same margins if you wanted to, but because the supply side has increase disproportionately to the demand, you are required to lower your margins to stay competitive.
Andy:
I have not noticed any decrease in material costs. I have noticed a downward pressure on retail prices. I would not say that knowing what the market wil bear is “letting the competition dictate your prices”.
Joe
I haven’t dropped my prices at all. The sad fact is I need to advertise harder to get the same number of jobs in the shop. That extra cost means lower margins, yes? So, no drop in price, greater cost of living regarding salaries, insurance, advertising, and I probably haven’t raised my prices enough = lower margin..
interestingly we are seeing more refferals again, which is very refreshing. There was a time when the lure of the box was great, indeed. Hopefully not so much now and in the future.
Tom
Andy, I know of a plant sitting about 75 miles from here. The guy spent a fortune setting it up, just about every peice of high production equipment you can think of for making furniture, tennon machines, molders, four head sanders, cnc routers, coveyorized finishing, you name it he had it.
Couldn’t get the locals to show up to work. The plant has been sitting there about four years now.
Tom told it like it is. High volume shops trade most of the profit in a job for keeping their shop busy. If it works for them, fine, but they aren’t building up a reputation for quality and fair dealing with their ultimate customers. If they do a good job, home despot gets the credit.
We raise our prices every year as sheet goods go up. Our quality level goes up the longer we do this, that alone is worth something. Few of the low price leaders in our market stay in business for long, low price + low quality = pissed off customer. We placed 36 on the wood 100 list last year ( shops that increase sales the most by percentage) and most likely will place again this year. Can’t grow by selling cheap in the high end kitchen business, people want to spend enough to not only brag about, but spend enough that their friends and family won’t out do them.
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