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Joe,
Thanks for the feedback.
Dave,
You are right in that the knife grade polyesters and AB epoxies are the norm in a stone shop and always have been. Always will be? Debatable. 10 years ago, Quartz surfacing was relatively unknown in North America and look where is it now. The Estone 101 adhesive Joe is referring to is, like quartz surfacing, a relatively new product-specifically designed to work with Engineered Stone.
I have spoken with many stone fabricators regarding the tinting and hand mixing of adhesives and I’ll agree that the ones who have taken the time to perfect it can do an incredible job of color matching and achieving inconspicuous seams. It is an art in itself especially on the wide range of Natural stone colors available.
On the other hand, with the color consistency of Quartz materials (some better than others), a pre-colored, meter mix dispense system makes a little sense. You achieve the same adhesive color every time, the same cure speed and bond integrity and it is really easy to learn the application. The other benefit is relatively no waste when compared to hand mix adhesives. Finally, the Estone bonder is designed to have sufficient bond strength for both the deck seam and laminations-eliminating the need for two different adhesives on the same job.
By the way, works great on granite too.
I hope this doesn’t come off as too much of a sales pitch-just trying to make sure the information about our adhesives is correctly stated.
Chad
FEDSAWDAVE wrote
Joe, you simply have no idea what your talking about. Nobody is gambling squat. While Integra makes a fine adhesive, in the world of stone & e-stone, knife grade and color kits are the norm. Always have been and will continue to be.
I have never…ever heard a customer say they mixed the color in and lost a “5 or 10 grand job” Never. Simply ludicrous. And for lamination, a quality A & B epoxy works like a charm.
You also assume that there is a “Jimmy” doing this work in every shop. There is not. Quality guys that know how to do it.
(Bear with me guys, I know this is like watching me shoot fish in a barrel, but Davey-boy obviously needs another trip to the woodshed)
Dave:
For us to verify your claim that I know not of what I speak we would have to know how many times you have used epoxy and Integra to make estone seams for a living. We would also need to know how much formal manufacturer training you have had in the application of said adhesives. Also relevant would be your experience at having to go out on callbacks to “pick up after the kids” and/or to supervise same. Perhaps we can compare the technical articles we have had published. You list yours, I’ll list mine and we’ll let the readers decide if I know of what I speak.
There was a time Dave, when all the buggywhip manufacturer’s looked down their noses at the unreliable and noisy junk turned out by the likes of Henry Ford and his ilk. That is very similar to the epoxy manufacturer’s but-we’ve-always-done-it-this-way-just-like-Uncle-Guido attitude. Unlike stone guys, solid surface fabricators who do estone are used to getting PERFECTLY color matched and mixed adhesives from a tube. For a minimum expense, one is lowering the risk of doing business a notch at a time, which reflects on profitability. Profitability is the reason we all get out of bed in the morning. Production fabricators want consistency, repeatability and minimal installer interpretation. Goo-in-a-tube provides all three, ask ’em.
Leadership is about vision, so let’s not look at what guys are using now, like the buggywhip manufacturers, but let’s look into the future. You bring a thousand cash and your sales figures for epoxy to the 2010 show. I’ll bring a grand and try to talk Integra out of their stats. Biggest percentage increase wins. Fair enough? Or are you scared to get your head shaved again?
(The shotgun is empty, the fish are all dead)
Joe
P.S.
Let the written record show that at this time I do not and have not received free adhesives and/or payments/compensation from Integra. After this spanking, that may change, however.
Joe, I scanned your post, once again, you’re simply a blowhard. Don’t ask me what I’ve done…I’ll tell you, what I’ve seen used in the last 24 years. Get out of your gopher hole Joe and breathe reality.
Chad. I’d like samples of your product. For e-stone, we certainly have many granite guys that are old school and do it the way there fathers did. But now, they’ve taken on e-stone etc… and I’m open minded to showing them options or telling them about your products. I’ll definately take the time to visit you at your booth in Orlando, as long as my guys let me out of dunking booth.
And Joe, remember two things:
1) FEDSAW is a profitable, national supplier to all things Cabinet, Granite & Solid Surface with fabricators on staff, as opposed to an out of business construction company from Michigan.
2) When attempting to shoot fish, make sure said fish are not armed with a howitzer!
Dave:
Do you have any money or pride to put where those typing fingers are? Of course not. I know it and the readers know it. Again, you leave my challenges unresponded to, typical of your salesman kind. All talk, no action. When you grow a pair, let me and the readers know.
Most sincerely,
Joe
BTW, save the e-mails guys telling me to not respond to Joe as he is the boards rusty spoke. I know. I just like sticking my finger in his ear.
We fab granite and EStone and have been for about 4 years. We originally did the knife grade / tinting process. It works. It’s proven. Does that mean it’s the best way now and in the future? Not in my opinion. We have switched to Integra for our seams. Color matched glue? Nope! Not all the time. We usually use a clear or slight tint. If your seams are so tight that there are no gaps, then the glue color is a non issue b/c you can’t see it. If you leave “a few mm seam”, the hell yes you better be good at mixing colors. (for the non metric people 3mm is approx 1/8″, not acceptable in our shop)
Back to the original question posed. What tools for installing. GORILLA GRIPS and Integra are at the top of the my list. Carrying clamps are there also.
Guy
I just feel that a good set of tools would include the use of a pre packaged color tinted glue that matches your e-stone. That way you don’t ahve to become an expert in color tinting your first job out. YOu are already familiar with the adhesive gun, so you can concentrate on the installation not the glue.
Just my opinion. Should I be buying a shot gun?
Andy:
No need to get a shotgun, but since you share the view of Guy, Chad and me, you “simply have no idea what you’re talking about” either. Welcome to the “blowhard” club.
Joe
Dave,
With any and all due respect……..I know you are a national supplier, but many of your opinions and observances are coming from the Florida market. I worked in Florida on the supplier side of the business. Be it stone, e-stone, solid surface, cultured marble, I was in all the shops and majority had a relative lack of professionalism not seen to that extent in many other parts of the country.
There are lots of factors in play here, Florida’s right to work attitude, ease of incorporation in the state, availability of cheap imported materials due to many ports, availability of low-skill, low-wage workers, relative speed of builder market (fastest in the country), on and on. Don’t mistake doing things properly for the way they are done in that market. Simple things like safety glasses, back belts, etc are non-existent in many shops down there. Not all, but many.
How many shops do you know of that fabricate outside? I saw a bunch of em. Wouldn’t fly up here.
Please don’t discount Joe’s argument due to his and your communication problems. It has merit. Just because you move a lot of $$$ on a certain item, doesn’t make it the right way to do things, or doesn’t make it the ONLY way.
Not trying to pick a fight, just adding perspective.
I think we are missing the time savings as well as the quality improvments using a pre-colored adhesive in a cartridge.
We travel to new shops weekly doing this exact demo. Wednesday I did a side by side test in a large shop, he did a 6′ countertop and so did I. I had the laminated edges on and SPRING clamped while he was still mixing his adhesives. The adhesive on my countertop was set before he even had his C clamps attached. I know it is a new system but keep an open mind and try it, I promise you will never look back. If I am in your area I would even come and do a test with you. I will be in IL, MN and FL over the next 3 weeks.
Ray Aleksic
Matt, I accept the respect although it may not always be “due”. LOL
I discount nothing new. I try new things, half the products I’m looking at in this showroom came from someone convincing me. Razor, you may be booked but if you’re in our area, I’ll take you to a 30,000 sq ft stone shop down the street. The PA will give you time. Show him the stuff, convince him. Let me know. I may even wear a Seahawks jersey during the visit. YIKES!
Hello Dave,
That would be great, what part of the state are you in? I have not finalized the exact dates but I estimate arrival Feb 18th or Feb 25th.
I will take you for dinner if you are available, as long as you do not wear a Steelers jersey.haha.
Ray
Let me get this straight…Razor takes FEDSAWDAVE to dinner…People will talk…. LOL
Pinellas Park borders St. Pete. Tampa International Airport is about 10 miles away. Let me know where you’ll be. We can travel. Especially to our Naples or Ft. Myers hub if that is where you’re going.
Better yet, lets talk via: simplyservice@aol.com or at 1-866-FED-SAW1 (333-7291)
I’m VERY interested !
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