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I think it does, Tom. I think the approach is really good for a business that is selling multiple kinds of tops, and wants to give customers a place to go for an overview. It is balanced, which it needs to be for the purpose that it is serving.
I think that the different intent and purpose of the SSA site would suggest that it should be less balanced, since it is explicitly supporting one option over others. That’s why I suggested the possible option of having separate pages for the important characteristics of a countertop. You could emphasize the virtues of solid surface in regard to each of the characteristics, and then (like your pages do with the bullet points) hit those reasons why it’s better than the alternatives vis-a-vis that characteristic. I would think the right approach keeps the visitor thinking solid surface in a positive way, where it looks like the current direction is to get them thinking of other options in a negative way.
One thing I’ve learned as I’ve participated in discussions here and in other places is that there is clearly no love lost between the stone community and the solid surface community. It’s pretty brutal sometimes, and I think that it can easily cloud the judgment of participants on both sides when they take it personally. To quote Al Pacino as Michael Corleone in the greatest movie ever…..”It’s not personal, Sonny. It’s strictly business.” The winning business approach for solid surface, again just as my opinion, will come when you find a way to tell a compelling story about your product. I’m not saying that you should do it to be nice, or to “take the high road”, or anything like that. You should be honest, yes, because ethics require it. But in the end, you should do it because it gives you the best opporunity to win.
revans, in many of these shops, the stone community and the solid surface community are fabricated under 1 roof. IMO, it’s a heck of a lot easier for a solid surface fabricator to start doing stone, than it is for a stone guy to start doing solid surface.
I understand about the shops that do multiple surfaces, and I certainly will take your word about which is easier to do having experience with the other. I have stated here that the multiple surface shops would appear to have a competitive advantage that they can exploit. It’s also seems to be the case, though, that some of the guys who have started doing stone are among the most rabid and vocal critics of both the stone industry and the product itself. I surmise that they are working with stone because they feel like they have to, not because they want to, and they would still think of themselves as members of the “solid surface community”, to use the term that I introduced.
Quite frankly, most of them are just businessman offering a diverse product line. And, most of them if not the majority you wont here a peep out of. One would become a “rabid critic” when you simply can’t take the bold faced lies that permeate segments of the stone industry.
Two thoughts, Dave. First, I’m not trying to suggest how anyone should feel. I’m just offering my take on how to present the product to the public in a way that motivates them to buy it.
Second, I intended no offense with the word “rabid”, and I’m sorry if any was taken. I was thinking of the word as used when describing someone as a “rabid” Cubs fan, or the like, just meaning highly motivated and committed.
Heck, my skins not that thin
and no, didn’t take it that way.However, I just noticed War Eagle as your sig line. Auburn fan??
Yes I am. Moved to Alabama in ’95, and they pretty much make you declare “Roll Tide” or “War Eagle” when your moving truck hits the state line.
revans1 wrote
I’m going to throw my 2 cents in here, since this touches on the main reason I showed up here in the first place.
Tom, you make a good point about the mission statement, although it appeared to me that the mission statement wasn’t relevant to most of the site content before Page 3 went up.
I am firmly convinced that this whole site, as it currently exists, does more harm than good for your trade. It is strident, incoherent, and almost entirely negative. The only good part is that it’s probably invisible to 99% of the countertop-buying public. As more people see it, the worse off you’ll be.
A parallel immediately came to my mind as I browsed Page 3, and I think I’ll share it. I used to know a guy, years ago, who was completely convinced that he understood all there could be to know about the Kennedy assassination. His complete certainty was matched only by his complete failure to convince anybody else. We all thought he was “around the bend” on the topic. That’s how the SSA site appears to me, and I think it’ll appear that way to an overwhelming majority of consumers.
Revans1,
Tell me why in the world anyone here should take your advice at face value? You participated in a campaign to discredit me publically, spending many hours in the process, and it resulted in the one fabricator that would counter the lies about granite on gardenweb being banned from the site. You admit you did some things you weren’t proud of, blame it on protecting the garden web community in some way, if I understood correctly, yet the end result is leaving consumers with granite problems during their remodel at the mercy of those who attempt to minimize the problems while protecting their fellow stoners.
You might have some value to some as a consumer sounding board, yet why should anyone care what you think of the SSA site? Being on record as a defender of granite, and with the internet being what it is, how can anyone be sure that you are what you say you are? Not many people would spend the time that you have spent defending granite unless they had a dog in the fight….
I tracked down the lady in the video to the site where she made one of the initial complaint, after posting first on gardenweb. Note the “banned” below her screen name. She obviously has been reading posts on garden web, and must have made a major faux pau in asking for answers, which might be the reason for being banned, who knows. Seems this consumer used the info posted to check for herself, which is all that is expected, and ran into a stone wall as a result.
Seems she joined this stone site months before she bought her granite, so she seemed to be doing due dillignece research on her choice of countertop material. On 1/25/06 at 2:00 AM, she posted a laundry list of issues with granite,
“Also, there is tons of info out there. Also misinformation. Do you seal the stone or not? Some say yes, some say depends on the stone. How do you clean the stone? Again, some say a special spray, some say soap and water. What about radon? True or False? What about fissures and cracks? Resined slabs? Good or Bad? Maintenence issues ar such a nightmare. That alone makes ES sound better and better to the average homeowner.”
So long before I started in on granite issues, the controversy was there. Notice there were no replies to the issues. Why should they be honest about the issues? They have only one song to sing for their supper….
Tom,
the site should have it in for E stone and granite. That is it’s purpose to expose the overmarketing of competing products. Fabnet needs to be neutral to serve it’s varied readers, but the SSA needs to serve only one product.
I don’t see the video as being blunted in any way. True it is easy to do these days, but this lady is a prime example of a consumer that did her research before buying and still didn’t get educated. Had the SSA site been up and well known, she would have had a chance to get more than one side of the issues.
I have written before of watching peoples faces as I do the finial care and cleaning talk after the top is installed, usually while I am putting another sealer coat on. You can tell the consumer is finially understanding what I had told them during the sales process, and they are unhappy, aprehensive, and full of doubt about their decision to buy granite. This video or others like it if we could find them, will get the attention of consumers. This isn’t a salesman talking, this is a dream kitchen turned into a costly nightmare.
Tom, as long as the links are presented, I have no problem with how they are presented. I spend far more time searching for links and info, then making sure they don’t stand alone in their claims, than writing the copy that goes with it on the page. I feel that the limited time I have is better spent in this manner. Anyone that is interested can send me a page to post as long as it serves the purposes of the site and is based upon truth.
As an example, look at the thread where the stoners are advocating fake names and cemetary addresses on repaired fissures. There is a vein of humor, yet no way is it just about joking around with an issue. A big part of this thread is how to deceive consumers, get that finial check, and limit their liability in the future. If the SSA can expose examples like this, it will change the stoners behaviour once they know that any shenanagains can be used against them.
The playing feild tips a bit more back to level with every page read by a consumer.
Revans,
Not true about this being a once in a lifetime purchase. I have customers going on their second kitchen in five years. People move up all the time. They have friends, like the ones that tried to tell Lisa about granite.
One of the great things about Fabnet is when someone runs into a problem, is told by the vendor that this has never happened before, or worse, that the issue isn’t a big deal. The fabricator posts about the issue, finds out they aren’t the first, nor will they be the last, and they have better info to deal with. Bad products become known faster and all fabricators benefit. Had Lisa’s friends been able to back up their granite complaints, she might have listened and saved thousands of dollars and much aggravation.
As Gene mentions, there is no love lost between competing products. Even the stoners complain about the major stone associatons not getting along. &am;nbsp; One would think that the stone restoration fellows would be a stoner’s best friend, yet the stoners appear to blame the restoration guys for publicizing problems with stone. Note the difference with solid surface, the restoration guys like Karl and Gordon are welcomed and highly respected. I send Karl consumers all the time.
The solid surface community seems to me to be a little mousy and timid, unwilling to stand up much of the time. Yet perhaps that is just the mindset since many of the shops are like mine, starting out as cabinet shops with a lot invested in equipment, physical plant, overhead, and reputation. Businessmen like this tend not to make waves but take the path of least resistance. After all, a few thousand bucks will bring in a new material, so it is not a problem to change to fit the current conditions, as I did.
Stoners on the other hand usually have some very specialized equipment if they have been around for long. Big payments to make each month…. Those that got into the trade recently understand they have to compete, but the older ones are having to face competition for the first time, so they go at it hammer and tong as Gene pointed out.
Revans1, you seem to be saying that telling half truths will convience more people than hard facts. Yes, no site can educate and sell at the same time, as no salesman can either. The SSA educates, we wil leave the selling to others. Your thoughts about breaking down materials and commenting are fine, but Fabnet is a better place for that or gardenweb.
On the radiation issue, it is cold hard fact that granite contains radioactive elements. These elements decay as all radioactive materials do and give off Alpha, Beta and Gamma radiation. The Alpha particles decay into radon gas among other byproducts.
There is no safe level of radioactivity as it or it’s effects do accumulate. A person who develops cancer will little care the exact percentage that radon gas from their granite countertop added to whatever soil based radon gas or other causes lead to the development of their cancer. All they and their loved ones know for sure is that life is at risk.
In the end, I don’t give a rat’s *** if you believe the science or not, but as long as there is a possibility that a material will add any percentage to death or injury rates, an honest fabricator should inform customers. The thousands of words written on gardenweb about radiation and granite started with one thread where I cautioned a consumer to pick another color of granite. A two or three sentence subject expanded only because stoners tried to suppress the comments. That was a strategic mention, answered by a diatride by others, sadly you were among them.
Al,
You have to decide if the Solid Surface Alliance site, which is the entire communication wing of the SSA, is going to persuade or overwhelm. Will it ask the viewer to sit down and share a yarn or two, or will the viewer be subjected to a guy going all cousin Cotton-like* and preach the gospel of solid surface and the travails against the Satan Stone and Lucifer Quartz. Either way your point might get across, but gentle correction of the record, or clearing of the confusion usually is more successful than burning the heretics.
Remember:
Mission Statement
Recognizing the need for the countertop industry to present honest, verifiable information to the Design community, the Fabrication community, and the Public at large, the Solid Surface Alliance exists to serve its members as they work toward that goal.
You have this part down like few others. You do more research, back up more facts, verify and have the experience of smashing more myths than anyone else here (IMO).
Through sponsorship of testing and other research, assistance in public relations, and through open, respectful discussion, the Solid Surface Alliance will be a repository for the knowledge gained, and promotion to be used to further the goals of the industry.
You’re already on this and going strong, but the info has to given due consideration as to how you want the public to read it. If you’re going to sell info to the folks, you won’t succeed by over selling it.
Partnership without intimidation;
Debate without rancor;
Research without bias.
This is what needs some work.
Also, I care about revans1’s opinions are. I wouldn’t ask the question if I didn’t want the answer.
Also, I have read a lot of comments here and on other sites about the radon thing. I have to say I don’t see much disagreement that it exists, the main point on that side is that it doesn’t warrant the attention.
*Cotton Mather, that is.
Al, when I arrived here I started with an apology to you, because when we were posting on GardenWeb I was rude to you and I made fun of you. My offered apology still stands, should you choose to accept it.
I think you’ve got to take responsibility for the actions that got you booted from GardenWeb, though. That happened based on your actions, not mine.
I addressed your questions about my “real identity” as best I could in the thread I started here. I don’t have granite in my home, have never had granite in any home (my new Corian is my first top that isn’t just plain old laminate). I don’t know or care much about granite. I’ve spent the last 19 years working at a huge insurance company, in a role that has nothing whatsoever to do with granite. I will say that I have become sort of fascinated by the “wars” between (as a Gweb poster put it one time) “the rock people and the plastic people”. It has some parallels to some other experiences in my life, business and otherwise, and I think it’s a very interesting example of how people with different perspectives can view a single set of facts in radically different ways. (Like the last play of the Alabama/Ole Miss game last Saturday…both sides are absolutely convinced that they’re right, and that anyone who disagrees must be an idiot, a Communist, or some combination thereof.)
I’ve offered my opinion on the relative effectiveness of some different ways of presenting the solid surface countertop option to the public, based on my being one part of “the public” who just recently was very interested in receiving such information. I’ve also interacted a good bit, both in person and on line, with others in a similar situation. Nobody here is obligated to care what I think, obviously. My ideas will have to stand on their own merits, if they have any.
revans1 wrote
Al, when I arrived here I started with an apology to you, because when we were posting on GardenWeb I was rude to you and I made fun of you. My offered apology still stands, should you choose to accept it.
I think you’ve got to take responsibility for the actions that got you booted from GardenWeb, though. That happened based on your actions, not mine.
I addressed your questions about my “real identity” as best I could in the thread I started here. I don’t have granite in my home, have never had granite in any home (my new Corian is my first top that isn’t just plain old laminate). I don’t know or care much about granite. I’ve spent the last 19 years working at a huge insurance company, in a role that has nothing whatsoever to do with granite. I will say that I have become sort of fascinated by the “wars” between (as a Gweb poster put it one time) “the rock people and the plastic people”. It has some parallels to some other experiences in my life, business and otherwise, and I think it’s a very interesting example of how people with different perspectives can view a single set of facts in radically different ways. (Like the last play of the Alabama/Ole Miss game last Saturday…both sides are absolutely convinced that they’re right, and that anyone who disagrees must be an idiot, a Communist, or some combination thereof.)
I’ve offered my opinion on the relative effectiveness of some different ways of presenting the solid surface countertop option to the public, based on my being one part of “the public” who just recently was very interested in receiving such information. I’ve also interacted a good bit, both in person and on line, with others in a similar situation. Nobody here is obligated to care what I think, obviously. My ideas will have to stand on their own merits, if they have any.
Revans1,
What got me booted from gardenweb was a pack of ***holes that didn’t want to allow free speech. I saw threads all the time there, heck even here, that I had no interest in, so like the TV, it takes effort to watch or read, so if it offends it is easier to not read than to read. Again, after one of your bunch spreading the lie that I had set up a homeowner to be taken advantage of, despite me giving her a price range long before I tried to find her a fabricator. Three fabneters took the time to address the thread, causing one of the most dispicable of your gang to complain that gardenweb was “being invaded”. That is what got be banned.
Revans1, after this any new granite consumers complaining on garden web have you to thank, simple as that. You participated in a lynch mob no different than those in the Jim Crow era. Now you are here to finish the job, attempting to drum up opposition to the SSA site. Were not for your former actions you might have some credibility.
I wasn’t part of a “pack” or a “bunch” or a “gang”. My posts were independent, and had nothing to do with the particular situation that you mention.
Your statement that being banned from a website is the result of “a lynch mob no different than those in the Jim Crow era” is a perfect example of the sort of extremist, irrational, and offensive language that motivated me to hit back at you in the first place.
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