-
Posts
-
The latest “green” talk brought to our attention can be found here:
Corian,Zodiaq,Silestone, Formica, and Cambria already on board and more to come I would imagine. Our customer called originally because Architects in his area are starting to specify GreenGuard products.
Chad
Though I appreciate the humor I would like to see this thread become a little more professional. I feel from a business standpoint this information can be very useful for all of us. I am not sure why it has become so political and why Wags is getting such a hard time but if we could get back on track it would be great.
I just bid a job for a museum, the contractor said that the price does not matter as much as the amount of green products being used. Bottom line was whoever has the most will likely get the job. So the more I know how it works the better chance I have to get the job.
I have been struggling for a while now to learn as much as I can about these green products and the impact they have on the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (Leed) Green Building Rating System®. This system was developed by the US Green Building Council, under contract with the US Department of Energy. It is a voluntary standard for developing environmentally responsible, low emission, high-performance, sustainable buildings. It is real, it is here now, and I would like to get in on the ground floor so I will get the jobs other people loose because they have no clue.
For those of you that want to know, the following will give you an idea of how it works;
Recycled Content: LEED V2.1 awards points for buildings that contain recycled, salvaged, reused, or refurbished materials, with points awarded as a function of the total building material weights (5% = 1 point, 10% = 2 points). Credit is based on the sum of post-consumer recycled material + 1⁄2 of post-industrial recycled material. This contributes to Credits 4.1 & 4.2 of the “Materials & Resources” area.
Local Regional Materials: LEED V2.1 awards 1 point if 20% of the building materials are manufactured (final assembly) regionally within 500 miles of the project site. This contributes to Credit 5.1 of the “Materials & Resources” area.
Rapidly Renewable Materials: LEED V2.1 awards 1 point if 5% of the total value of all building materials used are derived from plants that are harvested within a ten-year cycle or shorter. This contributes to Credit 6.0 of the “Materials & Resources” area.
Certified Wood Materials: LEED V2.1 awards 1 point if a minimum of 50% of wood based materials certified in accordance with FSC Guidelines. This contributes to Credit 7.0 of the “Materials & Resources” area.
Low Emitting Materials: LEED V2.1 awards 1 point (Credit 4.1 of “Indoor Environmental Quality” area) if the VOC content of adhesives is less than the current limit specified in SCAQMD Rule #1168, and 1 point (Credit EQ 4.4) if the engineered wood and agri-fiber products contain o added urea-formaldehyde resins.
For those of you that want to turn this into some kind of political BS do me a favor and start another thread. That way those of us that actually want to learn about this stuff and make some money don’t have to read that crap.
Shane
I as well would like to learn as mush as possible about green products. We just landed a sizable job that’s considered green. Very good information Shane.
Nice redirect Shane.
LEEDS is another one that has come up recently (in particular point 5 on Shane’s post) which we are interested in learning more about. Thanks for the great info.
Chad
Shane,
I think what might help is for Andy/Mory to have a section specifically dedicated to green. That way the information is not congealed into one or two threads. Different posts can cover different topics, all of which could relate to green fabrication, info, access, etc.
I also hope the bit of humor I am injecting to lighten the discussion hasn’t in any way detracted from the seriousness that I take in this debate. I know that it seems like a done deal. The designers and architects are falling over themselves to spec. green, knowing it will add to the cost of the job. I need to learn everything I can as well. But please don’t mistake accepting the inevitable as rolling over for a rear entry. This is a good idea that will be handled in a bad way. Good companies are going to fold because of this and it pisses me off. Many of you feel that that is the cost that gets paid. I say it shouldn’t be that way. Not much humor in that, I’m afraid, but there it is.
If a poster is going to tout the practice, I assume it is safe to question the practice. If a disagreeing viewpoint becomes verbotten, then I will respect that as well. This isn’t my house and I understand the rules.
Unless you were talking about Dave, to which I say “Flame away!”
Tom
Tom,
I think a specific section dedicated for green is a good idea, but weather it is a dedicated section or thread I hope we can take it seriously. I have read your posts and feel you have a very passionate attitude about what you write, but I also feel you may have taken it to an unnecessary level, but that’s just my opinion.
Did you know that you are already using green certified products? That’s right, Plastic Laminate, Solid Surface, and Quartz is Greenguard Indoor Air Quality Certified® by the Greenguard Environmental Institute under the Greenguard Standard for Low Emitting Products (not sure if all brands are yet). That falls under the Low Emitting Materials section. You can also make the entire Laminate countertop certified by using SkyBlend® particleboard. This may be good information for you to know when you start bidding Green.
Lastly, I do not think it is wrong to disagree, I just think you are fighting the wrong people and I would like this discussion to continue in a productive way so we all can be aware of the products that we all will inevitably be bidding and working with someday. I don’t know about you but I feel pretty good when I am ahead of my competitors with the knowledge and hands on experience with new products.
Shane
Shane,
I’m not trying to be flip here.
I honestly don’t know why you feel I have been taking this as anything but serious.
I have said so many times that I, as well as all of us, need to learn about this because it is happening. I’m already on board with you guys on that. I posted a link to a forum discussion board that operates on the assumption that it is a done deal, which is what you are stating (correctly, in my opinion).
Aren’t you angry that this has seemed to go right past discussion into accepted fact? Aren’t you angry that this type of action always results in small shops taking the hit, because they can’t afford the research, they can’t afford the compliance, and they can’t afford not to try? It is a raw deal that they (possibly me) will not get a fair shake for something that isn’t even proven to help but a little?
Having said all that, I was posting responses to Wags, who has most of the 911 on this, as you seem to have as well. It seems that the ranting over necessity has gone, and its time to settle down to what we need to know.
Understand though, that we are getting shanghiaed on yet another feel good program that will cost more than it will help, when the best solution is education to change people’s habits and usage.
Now I will try to revert to info mode, unless someone else feels like defending this as the good thing it was meant to be. You will have to forgive me if I chime in to answer.
And, if I recall, I said that laminate should be considered the greener of the materials. Solid surface and stone being considered, simply because they have the possibility of lasting longer than the average homeowner lets them do not count, if that is the criteria used. If they say that potential counts more than actual, they are not sincere about this subject.
Tom
Aren’t you angry that this has seemed to go right past discussion into accepted fact?
Nope, not angry at all. I am looking at this whole thing as new materials that are being specified for commercial projects and requested by homeowners. I am in business to make money and if there are new materials out there that people want then I am all over it.
Aren’t you angry that this type of action always results in small shops taking the hit, because they can’t afford the research, they can’t afford the compliance, and they can’t afford not to try?
Again, not angry at all, mainly because I don’t think small shops are taking any kind of “hit”.
Can’t afford the research? All it takes is the desire to learn about the products and standards and take the time to do the research, all part of doing business.
Can’t afford the compliance? Compliance to what? No one is mandating shops to comply with using green products to my knowledge.
Can’t afford not to try? This I believe, I personally feel that we all should be trying to meet the demands of our customers. Otherwise why are we in business?
It is a raw deal that they (possibly me) will not get a fair shake for something that isn’t even proven to help but a little? I don’t understand why you would feel this is a raw deal, no one is forcing you to do anything. Fair shake??? Again not sure what you mean but these are new products for us to learn about, new standards for us to understand, and new money for us to make. Again I feel it is all part of doing business.
You really seem angry that someone is forcing this on you, yet no one is. Were you angry when you started to sell Quartz and Granite because that is what your customers were asking for? Didn’t you need to do research on these products first? From a business stand point, I don’t see this as being much deferent than that.
Shane
Shane,
Thanks for the reply.
I don’t know what size shop you work in/own/run, but there is a continuing burden on the small shop guy in this that (per unit of production) is far more expensive than the company that absorbs this kind of cost into a larger number of production workers.
Anyway, we will shortly be getting to the point where we start talking past each other, so I’ll leave this part of the discussion alone for now. You and Wags are on the cutting edge of this and I want to hear what you guys have to say about it. I do hope Andy/Mory have a dedicated section, as this is a topic that will be searched for years to come, and it would be good to have some kind of “data dumping ground” for the information to be easily found in.
Please don’t let the fact that I think it is a collossal waste of time and money make you to think I am not interested. I look forward to more info from you guys on this.
Tom
More Green Everywhere. Check out Home Depot is doing ad HI-MACS is stepping into the mix with Avonite as having “Green” solid surface material.
I saw the LG product a while ago, but they waited till Earth Day to launch this product. At the Expo they had a sign that said coming April 22.. As with Avonites “Green” products.. I have to say … ho hum… ok colors, but nothing special. They are geared towards Commercial work and will be priced similar to Volcanics.
Tom
Your confusing making YOUR shop “green” and green products. There are no mandates a shop do anything, It is merely PRODUCTS that are green. You need to do nothing but offer some of the products, Avonite and Hi Macs at this point that include some “Recyled” product in them. You will see NO DIFFERENCE in working with these products than working with any other SS product. What is recyled is the particulate. They regrind defective sheets, cut off’s etc and use them in a new “mix”. This works exactly the same as any other product. Lets not confuse mandates that you need to change something in your process and using PRODUCTS that are “Green”. Hope this clears some of the confusion up.
Some things people can do, which I have done for several years is using the “florescent” replacement bulbs for incandesent bulbs, saving about 1/4 of the elec. Here Costco has had a promotion with the local Electric Co so the bulbs are very inexpensive.
I agree much of the “green” Movement is BS.. but not all. Are you aware at least 37 National Cabinet companies are “green” using wood from sustainable forests.. just makes sense. In fact many cabinet companies are in the lead in that area. Many of the inititives make good business sense, besides being good for the enviroment.
Wags,
First, you see in Andy’s post that an earlier suspicion I had has already panned out. Home Depot is jumping on this hard. Think about that. A business whose very model is geared for the disposable market is trying to be a player in the movement that is anathema to its goals. They are donating sums of money to help in the research of greenas well. How much influence will they have?
Number two, small shops aren’t just fabrication shops. I talked to a rep about an Azek like product who produces it on a small scale. They cannot affpord the costs of accreditation to get their product labled apropriately. They will have to, of course, but it certainly is evidence that the small business has a major disadvantage.
And who are these councils, or businesses that are the arbitters of certification? Are they public? (no) are they quasi-public? (no idea) are there fair standards that consider the correct facts that are relevant in practice as well as theory? Do you know?
As for fabricators’ cost, I need to spend time researching. I don’t have a research department, or even the commercial sales staff to do this, and I certainly can’t afford to hire one. That is a cost. Are these programs going to extend to shops output into the stmosphere? They should, shouldn’t they? If that becomes the case, isn’t that a burden that many smaller shops will not be able to bear?
Tom
Another take on the leaders of the enviro movement.
Anecdotal? Sure, but very telling. We are told we have to change our ways to save Ma Earth from the coming havoc we are wreaking on the ol’ gal as we speak. The chief publicity generators are these types of celebrities, who theselves would rather buy their way out of the inconvenient truths of what such a lifestyle change would entail.
Tom
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.