[Wags]

With most experts agreeing were at peak oil. And Oil today, in a weak world economy, is about $80 a barrel, what does the future hold?

If oil goes to $200 or higher a barrel, what does that mean for the SS industry? At the same time the cost of the raw products in SS continue to rise, we see some stone dropping in price.  Many of the surfacing options utilize petroleum products, ie Laminate, SS, engineered Stone, does that mean stone will gain market share?

I would be interested in hearing others thoughts on the industries future, considering petroleum products will continue to rise in cost as the worlds economy, and population grows.

[David Gerard]

With the movment to make autos more energy efficient or none gas burning, do you think the cost of oil will go down ever?  

Lenny’s remark a while back,  “oil is too valuable to burn” has become a sort of montra to me.

[Wags]

With the demand growing in other nations, ie China, India etc it is why when were at 20% unemployment oil is still close to $80. If the US economy picks up, along with the rest of the world, were going to see demand grow much faster than oil can be pumped, assuming we can find enough to pump.

I hope the industry is looking at renewable resins rather than petroleum based resins for the future. Otherwise were going to have difficulty maintaining a competitive price.

I am seeing more and more projects using ES where in the past they were Laminate and then went to SS.

[Jon Olson]

My first thought was SS will cost as much as the emerging green surfaces.

[Eli Polite]

where is solid surface rite now as it is ? what i mean is i fab it all lam, ss , es , green , wood stone , concrete. 10 years ago i did 95% solid surface in the last 2 years i have sold maybe 10 solid surface jobs one of witch i am installing tomorrow. all cove and it is a huge job but they are fewer jobs every year rarely does any one even ask to see the stuff and when they do i here comments like. that looks cheep. why not just spend a few more dollars and get the real stuff. im afraid it will date my kitchen. or there are so many better choices than solid surface. these are things i here with no prompting what so ever. is solid surface soon to be off the list as a hot surfacing for your tops or is it already off the list?…… do you think in the next few years you will see post form type blanks sold in lows with small do it your self dvd and a few glue mix packs. why not?

5 years ago i thought that the small shop was going to disappear swallowed up by the large producers that could kill our price point (but not our quality)…and produce 2000 sq ft+ a day now those guys are dropping like fly’s the small micro shop with lower out put higher standards for quality and the ability to educate the customer and give the service that the large guys never could is the only thing working effectively. with education, better sealers, and cleaners on the market stone is more appealing than ever and the price is more than competitive.

is solid surface no what laminate was 10 years ago? has it’s day come and gone? there is always commercial applications for it but when was the last time you say solid surface in a K&B magazine on the shelf of a grocery store? there will alwasy be a market but in my are i sell as much laminate as i do solid surface.

[Tom M]

Eli,
The solid surface industry got too fat and happy in the 90’s and didn’t see the price of stone dropping, nor the market switching. (Yeah, I know, some did, but not enough).

It allowed scratch ability and a more plastic look become arguments that lost people’s hearts. Hygiene, coved inlays, seam mounted sinks, an incredible repair ability factor, malleability of the product, etc., all those features were somehow shoved behind scratches and a less natural look. That was our fault for letting that happen. Ours and the manufacturers, who were all trying to get their particular brand of quartz established in the market. They freely let solid surface slide for those ends.

…………………………………………………………………………………

Regarding your comments about shops and shop size:
I think you’re both right and wrong. Many large shops have downsized, but think about how many are still around. I remember when WilsonArt opened the facility in New Jersey. I met Paul Temple there, who had come from one of the first big fab outfits. There was one other in California, so that was two, and the W/A plant which closed shortly after.

Then we saw STC and other outfits emerge, as well as mid size outfits becoming large production houses. Last, with V Groove technology and the reduced cost of CNC, many mid sized shops could vastly increase production. They in effect became big shops with a minimal staff. Some have closed, some have downsized, but there are so many large shops – almost all incorporating quartz and stone, to be sure, but they are still there.

As for the small shops, yes, there are an unfortunate amount of them. Most will fall by the wayside, but only to have others spring up in their wake. I applaud the small business entrepreneur, but most of these guys do not play by the rules. They skip worker’s comp, they don’t register with the state consumer protection department (and get away with it) and, frankly, many have substandard quality.

I hope solid surface gets back up on it’s feet residentially, but, like you, I’m not sure it ever will. That’s why Jon always pushes other uses for it, and he’s absolutely right.

[Jon Olson]

Good points Tom. I would also say in the Kitchen World good designers have not be taught correctly how to use SS. You will see soon Kitchen designers learning to love the way they can design with SS. SS has unlimited design potential unlike other surfaces that are only flat and can not be used more for than a color option.

 

The Industry as a whole has to market SS  for what it is. I think we have only seen the beginning of SS . The future is bright for SS

 

[Wags]

Lets not forget, laminate still out sells all other products combined. I agree that we, as an industry, have not done a good job of education, or, of countering ES and Stone’s contention that they are the ultimate surface. One problem is, the innovation in the industry is not happening. We get a new shade of brown but nothing ground breaking ( remember Avonites glass series, or metalic’s). Without some new “wow” in solid surface it IS becoming yesterdays news.

[Tom M]

Jon,
I agree, as usual, with your assessment, but I wonder how enthusiastic designers will be to this. It seems to me that, with the plethora of direct to customer fabricators (I am one), many designers just phone the countertop quote in or in some cases don’t even include it.

The designers that are willing to even consider designs on countertops are usually the most upscale, and rare. ISSFA had an opportunity to make inroads and either bungled the mission or proved it not worth the effort. Can ISFA do it now? Would it be working against itself if it does?

[Eli Polite]

i am well aware of all of your points. i think what i am saying is that solid surface has seen its hay day. i don’t ever see it being as big as it was in the custom kitchen market. that time has past. how many new materials have hit the market in the last 10 years alone? some will disappear some will flourish and some will be hot for a while and than die down. but i think the days of solid surface being on the tips of every ones tongue as a costume surface are on there way to being finished. even in commercial situations i am seeing other materials take over. here in my small part of the world the new McDonalds has st Cecilia in the bathrooms and all the window trim and serving counter are the same. the new chicken place has granite as well and the food court at the mall is covered in granite. all of this used to solid surface. i try to stay on top of industry news as much as i can and we have bought out solid surface shops that have gone under. we are also seeing better educated customers walk through the door 80% of the time by the time they walk through the door they already know what they want and your not going to change there mind. the internet is a great thing it is making our job easier. at the same time it is making the job of the middle man that much harder. people are cutting out the middle man customers are finding out that you can go direct for there tops and save some green and see more options and save a lot of time.

the market is different and it will never be the same again. its not hard to find out that if you want real customer service and support the way to go is a smaller shop that caters to the needs of the customer and treats each customer like it is the only customer they have. the only way you could do that effectively with a large shop is to break it down into several small shops under 1 roof in other words you would have to have 4,5,or6 micro shop pods each pod being separate from the other. each pod having 1 maybe 2 sales people 3 to 4 fabricators and 1 install crew each pod would work completely defendant of the other and each pod would fallow through with its customers. that’s another topic though.

i guess what i am getting at is solid surface will always be out there it will always be a part of the market unless oil drys up and if that happens solid surface will be the last thing any one is thinking about. for people like me who cater to the higher end market and do more custom than production solid surface is just not there rite now and im not sure if it will ever be a competitor in that market again.

here is a kitchen i just put in today the first thing the cabinet guy that sold the job said when he got on site was. i still cant understand why they went with this crap. if your going to spend 9k+ on a top buy something that at least looks nice. i see this mind set more and more often at this point solid surface is dated and unless somthing eye poping comes along it will fade to almost all being lower level projects. whan was the last time any of you did solid surface in a 5millon dollar home ? it has been at least 6 years for me and we have done quite a few of those homes.. all of them ES , granite

[Lenny E]

Interesting post polite fab. My feeling is oil is too valuble to burn, and if oil ever fails solid surface, E stone (which uses oil based resin as a binder) and laminate will all be in trouble.

However with that said, any of these chemicals (resins) can be synthesized from naturally (via fermentation) occuring alcohol, although that would be a more expenisive route. And also there are the natural resins from pecan shells etc.

The value I see in E stone and especially solid surface and laminate is that  they are man made. We control the horizontal and vertical. As a former laminate, solid surface and E stone pattern designer, they are such easy materials to work with. You are limited only by your imagination. Want it to glow in the dark, look like wood, or stone?, its doable in either solid surface or laminate and to a lesser extent Estone. In E stone you are limited by the 93% or so “natural products” that go into the makeup.

I dont want an argument, just my opinion submitted respectfully.

[David Gerard]

I dont want an argument

” we don’t want an argument ,, we just want to change your oil” (quick lube commercial)
 sorry ,  I just saw something funny there.

Does any one know a cost comparison to harvesting, planing , polishing and shipping granite compared to manufacturing and shipping SS?

[Eli Polite]

well it bring up the question do you think that people will be willing to pay even more than they are now for solid surface/ES even laminate i would think that it would just make it that much more unappealing..

I’m not trying to stir any thing up i like laminate and solid surface they are fun to work with. but seriously do you rely think that solid surface will ever be a big contender in the custom kitchen market. i know it now has a large application in mid range homes and commercial work but again i have seen less and less solid surface in high end kitchens. is it my area?

[Jon Olson]

A few point’s. Polite Fab

 

Working on a $10,000 Corian kitchen for a $300,000  house.  Full height bs with Corian inserts + a tile look

 

Just installed a $12,000 Corian  kitchen. Cove BS in a curved wall application, custom sinks etc..The home owner saw a cool Corian design in a magazine and wanted to duplicate.

 

 

Now that’s interesting. It shows when marketing is used the product sells.

 

designs magazines are tired of talking about granite. You can now find granite in low income housing  .It is becoming a commodity which in turns means low profit.

 

I know your not trying to cause trouble your points help all of us think about what is needed to improve SS sales.

 

You said the contractor called SS crap. Typical. He’s been program from the design world what to think. So now we need to program the design world about SS. That’s the simple part .The hard part is finding a way to do this.

 

Polite Fab if you had the ear of SS Manufraters all in a room what suggestion would you give them to sell more SS?

 

[Wags]

The industry has done a lousy job of positioning SS as a premium product. We have allowed stone to become the perceived “ultimate” surface. We didn’t work to get SS on home improvement shows, in news papers etc. Also, allowing builders to install white SS, with set on splashes and cheap Drop in Sinks has done nothing to help the industry. Those that did that sold out for a fast buck and now were paying the price. When I visited model homes I would never have purchased SS, as it was fabricated and installed. Huge islands with horrible seams, not strapped and Corian allowed it. As one large fabricator said when I asked why don’t you strap the seam, “its cheaper to replace a top than take the time to do it right”.

Lenny your correct that resins can be produced using other than petroleum products, paperstone uses cashew oil. Eco by Silestone is using corn and soy oil in its products, it will be interesting to see how this holds up over time and use.

We lost our innovation as an industry. Avonite use to be the leader in this, but has, it seems, to have put innovation on the back seat. All we get each year is a new shade of brown. Without some new “Wow” products, we ARE yesterdays news.

When I can purchase stone slabs for $4 a foot and solid surface is$10 or higher, and stone has a perceived value higher than SS why would I try to switch customers?

We need someone, some company to step up and take the lead. Innovate educate and promote are the keys.

[Author]

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