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Mike, when I would talk to Mory out west, he always put it in terms similar to what Dave just did – jobs per week to justify the machinery. At a full shop set up, there’s no way I would sell enough jobs to do in a week what I would need to (in this economy). All of a sudden this Omag or similar CNC deals come out and it makes me wonder. I don’t think financing would be bad, or even necessary, but I always went with new equipment and am a chicken on used. How do I know I am getting quality stuff?
I understand what you are saying with auto, versus manual fabrication in general, and I have a guy who is pretty talented in non- automated fabrication, which I would insist on anyway, as well as a good CNC guy, so I’m okay there, but if I go automated, how am I really keeping the guys busier? Isn’t it more like hiring another guy?
Dave,
I have heard good things about another Bloomfield guy, named in a Bram Stoker novel, if you know what I mean. Any thoughts?Also I noticed that the East Windsor guy used to have a showroom in my town, and that showroom is gone now.
At the end of the day, you need the volume to pay for the machinery. It’s like paying up front or giving an employee a commitment for two or three years.
Do you think you could sell enough to justify the purchase of equipment? Do you have the room to do water fabrication?
Posted By Tom M on 15 Dec 2010 06:18 PM
Mike, when I would talk to Mory out west, he always put it in terms similar to what Dave just did – jobs per week to justify the machinery. At a full shop set up, there’s no way I would sell enough jobs to do in a week what I would need to (in this economy). All of a sudden this Omag or similar CNC deals come out and it makes me wonder. I don’t think financing would be bad, or even necessary, but I always went with new equipment and am a chicken on used. How do I know I am getting quality stuff?I understand what you are saying with auto, versus manual fabrication in general, and I have a guy who is pretty talented in non- automated fabrication, which I would insist on anyway, as well as a good CNC guy, so I’m okay there, but if I go automated, how am I really keeping the guys busier? Isn’t it more like hiring another guy?
Tom,
How many stone jobs do you do in a week now? Do you aggressively push stone or just when the customer asks? If you don’t, when you bring it in house you will. I’m like you on machinery, I like to buy new but I’ve had good luck with used as well. If you purchase a used stone machine, have someone who is knowledgable check it out. There are quite a few experts out there and they know thier stuff. The Omag had an offer for set up and training as an add on and I would recommend that no matter what machine you purchase. You can purchase set up and training from all of the main manufacturers. The way you’ll keep your guys busy is setting up and removing pieces from the machine, touch up and sink mounting prep, sealing, loading and installing. My guys are trained in Solid Surface, Laminate, and Stone/E-Stone. So if thier not doing one they are doing the other. The machine I have is NW Fabcenter, it is a CNC Saw, and a full Stone CNC in one. (ie no sawyer/ only a programmer)Andy, I keep seeing less and less stone sales because I’m getting the crap kicked out of me price wise. We can create an area that can be a contained water zone, but I doubt I can afford the filtration yet. That’s another thing that worries me. I don’t know if we can get away with just using and draining the water or if I have to spend another 15- large to start with the filtration/reclamation.
Mike, I think you are right about our attitude towards stone. I prefer quartz, but I am not against stone, merely junk slabs and fabbers that cheapen the whole market. It is a common problem I hear from all you hard surface guys here on the FabNet.
Also, I pay my guys real wages. The highest in the area, really, and that makes it harder to compete.
I am encouraged by your words.
You can’t get away with draining the water. You might be able to if you filter it first but that kind of defeats the purpose. There are cheaper options for everything if you look around.
If you haven’t yet I would strongly suggest spending the couple hundred dollars for an annual membership to the SFA. Get active on that forum and / or go to a workshop and talk to a couple people that are already in the business. There are a number of very sharp guys in that group that won’t steer you wrong even if you’re their main competition.
Brian is dead on about the water, start with a closed loop system, there are lots of options out there including building your own.
His recommendation about the SFA is also a must do. The SFA helped me make the decision to start fabbing in house, because of the knowledge they shared. They will help you with anything and this is knowledge you will need. This also include Engineered stone and green products.I have always wondered what is in the
waterstone dust suspended in water that makes them not let you just drain it outside? The stuff was made outside, it gets worked outside, why can’t we just drain it outside?There are also resins on most stone that would end up in the water. You also get certain amounts of contamination from the tooling, polishing pads, and grease and oil from the machines. Plus, chances are, you aren’t just cutting granite. You’ll be doing engineered stone also.
The storm drains probably aren’t designed to deal with the sludge from the stone dust either. When it settles it compacts very tightly and it’s tough to clean up.
Tom, send me a PM with your email address. I got a fax yesterday with prices on used stone equipment that I can send to you.
The biggest reason for not just letting the water go into a storm drain is that storm drains flow into rivers and the suspended finer dust will clog the lungs of fish and other wildlife – that is the tree hugger version but I believe it and you are really close to the CT river too. Plus with a closed loop system you will save on your water/sewert bill if you have those utilities wher you are. You will then only need to compensate for evaporation. If the systen is good I think you can get tax benefits for conservation. Depending on the machinery you would be surprised how much water they consume. I built my own gravity filter system for my shop but the trouble I had was that it could not flow enough water fast enough most of the time – too small of a system. I under engineered it, would run out of water after sawing for 2 hours, need to put in more water and then it would overflow when everything settled.
Our buddy in East Windsor was having big troubles with the town last I talked to him because he was just letting the water flow out the building. He wanted to hire me to design a system like I had in my shop for him – I declined to get involved.
You will need trenches to collect water, a sump to pump it to the filter and either go gravity feed or press filter system. You will also need a large holding tank probably at least 1000 gallons for clean water storage. After that you will need to pump it back up to the machinery and polishing lines. It doesn’t hurt to put a water heater on the polishing line so your polishing guy does not freeze his hands in the winter. I didn’t heat my water and would turn off the heat in the shop at night so sometimes I had ice on the tank on a winter Monday morning. That sucked. The type of machinery you get will determine how clean you need to make the water but for polishing you will need to be filtered down to about 10 microns or less anyway. It might be tighter filtering required for a cnc but the manufacturers can tell you that.
With a good system and proper shop layout the system can be very smooth but a poorly designed system will drive you nuts.
Another consideration will be slab and finished top handling and storage.
5000# Forktruck, boom, slab clamp, shop carts, slab carts, fab tables, “A” frame racks
Polishers, compressors, profile bits, backers, pads, diamond drills, cup wheels, rodding wheels, blades.
Good points, both of you. I feel like I’m dragging you guys into a conversation you have had so many times it’s written on the backs of your eyelids – you can repeat it in your sleep.
I have a fair amount of hand held power tools and the forklift, some racks, strong fab benches, etc.
I was originally thinking of a good rail saw (13′ of track, etc.), a quality router, and the hand power tools that I don’t have plus the bits, disks and pads, and was quoted about $4,000, not counting the water, or the building work.
If the Omag can be had for $30 large, plus training and shipping, that doesn’t seem too bad an investment.
Building use – build on or move stuff and “waterize” the joint are big issues, but the biggest problem seems to be the cost of stone going down, down, down. Ten years ago would have been a much smarter move.Tom, which OMAG are you referring to? I am running an Omag profiler and have gone from outsourcing the fab to bringing fab in house and running EVERYTHING on the OMAG. I do not have a bridge saw.
If you are looking at low volume, and mostly quartz, you could skip the rail saw and invest in a bridge crane to cover the machine enveloope. Then one guy can run the machine and process probably 2 or 3 slabs a day, ready for install. This is not conventional, or normal, or maybe even a good idea
but it works for me. You will need a machine with a large table. Polish off the machine can be very good, etc…e.tc….etc…….if your serious let me know, i can give you this story coming and going but it is too long to type.
There are also specefic things you need to know about Omag. Every brand has pros and cons. If you get an Omag, you will need to meet Jerry Kidd. You will very much like Jerry.
912-690-2498
chrisOK, I looked back a little. If you are serious, I know the guy listing that machine. He runs an Omag in his shop also.
He took a half a day off to go kick the tires on my machine. The auction we bought it at happened to be near his shop.
He is great resource and a good guy.
Chris, if you can PM me your email, I would like to forward you an email to see if it is the same machine.
Andy, Mike, Dave, Brian, you guys are awesome! Thanks for the help so far.
Tom,
Have you considered laying out quality, time and pricing to see if you can find a fabricator that would meet your needs?
It is not just going to cost you for fabricating but installation as well. Compared to solid surface, stone is a back breaker and you need to have the installation equipment to get it installed.
Remember on some of the tops you will need a third and maybe even a fourth guy. This can be costly if you have to pull fabricators out of the shop to help on an install.
These are things we considered before NOT going forward with stone fabrication.
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