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Mark, I have never used photo system but I have heard there is some work involved with the system. Now, when I used to make wood templates I still just templated the cabs and wrote v+12 for a 12″ oh. Are you saying you add all your overhangs to your actual wood sticks?
Before we had a cnc we still loved the digital format. I have a vinyl plotter so I would just cut my templates on vinyl and then build tops to that.
Example, today I templated a commercial job. 4 desk tops wall to wall with post notch outs in all corners. Tops are roughly 155″x30. Aslo one kitchen top 96.5″. Then I will have 8 corbills. Took me roughly 20 minutes to shoot the template and another 20-25 mins in auto cad to complete drawing. Now to the cnc I will have about 45 mins worth of work nesting it. If I cut them on vinyl that would take me about 25 minutes. So without the cnc I am done in about 1hour. I think that is about the same as what it would take with wood other than I was shooting points to a blank wall. This would be a pain for sticks as there would be nothing there for them to sit on. PLus my template fits in my pocket.
Just a thought.
Yea, I do full size templates. I will actually cut the luan to 25.5 inches on my streibig as well as 4′ strips, 8″, 16″, 18″, 22.5″. I hot melt them together at the template and return them to the shop. I know they are perfect and leave absolutly no room for error and no flexing. I can lay them on the tops before the installers leave to verify everything is good. I don’t want my guys doing any cutting on the job site. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll draw whatever I can for solid surface, but every stone job gets a full size template for every piece. It helps with slab layout, veining, and the templates protect the pieces in the shop and on the A-frames. I know it sounds crazy, but I have an excellent track record with completed installs and satisfied customers. It may cost me more, and I do recycle the templates, but its working.
TOM, The cabinets don’t really have to be level since the targets are tall enough to cover about an inch of height differential. But it takes a little time to set up all the targets even and straight with the face frames and place them so that you can aim everywhere you need to. Sounds like your friend must have run into the same problem. It’s not that hard to work around, and doesn’t have to be a big deal IF YOU KNOW ABOUT IT. But for such a great measuring system to have that one little glitch in the tripod.. Don’t get me wrong, it’s infinately better than luan and hot glue, or even the plastic pvc strips. But for such a great product to have such a stupid little defect and they don’t even warn you about it. Surely they could fix it so that it would actually work flawlessly like the video portrays it too.
I just thought this forum would be the place to bring something like this up. You think about spending all that money and listen to all the marketers put a spin on their presentations while you try to read between the lines. And you know it’s what they don’t tell you thats important. I’d just want to know if I was trying to decide which one to buy (and I’d still buy the LT55!). Jeez, I’m looking at CNC’s, Bridge Saws, Panel Saws.. Makes me nervous. So I like this forum and look for the real experiences everyone has had. That kind of info is invaluable.
markm wrote
I’ve done thousands of wood templates and hundreds of photo top. I did the digital when I subcontracted templates and install from another company. When I template I check everything with my 72″ or 12′ stabila level, and do a wood template, and take several pictures of the cabinets, floors, and appliances. I keep the pics in case the customer trys claiming any damage due to install. With the wood templates I know for sure the job is correct before it leaves the shop. I don’t have a CNC so I don’t see the need to try it myself.
When I did the photo top for the other company I would have problems all the time. To be fair, I wasn’t the one doing the CAD work and I’m a perfectionist. It actually often took me more time to do the phototop than a wood template. By the time I leveled the first card, put on all the stickers, shot the pics, did a series of actual measurements and diagonals (to check the CAD) and instructions of radius and overhangs, and pull off the tape I could have done a wood template and been on my way. The wood templates also shows homeowners what their new top will physically be like. Many can’t judge overhangs and designs from CAD drawings. One more thing is with wood you know what will fit up stairs, in elevators, and thru doors an hallways.
I have never tried the LT-55 but have heard many good things. I think I’ll stick to my sticks for now. It gives me comfort and peace of mind.
My BS detector just went off.
There is absolutely no way it takes longer to do the template onsite using PhotoTop vs making full stick templates. If you are doing new construction and there is no homeowner to talk to and answer questions, you can set up, shoot, and tear down the average 4-5 top kitchen in about 20 minutes. I have done them in as little as 10 minutes if they are really straightforward.
It takes 5 minutes to heat up a glue gun…..
If you prefer to make full templates, that’s fine. Nobody can change your opinion. But the PhotoTop is faster, period. I’ll take the Pepsi challenge on that any day. I have done a lot of both and there is no doubt on pure speed which method is superior.
Tom, I have adjusted the height of my laser and never had a problem. I will usually mark the top itself and set up taller targets so I dont have to but I must admit I have lowered the laser and the tripod was not perfectly level. Then when I got back to the shop I checked the measurments and the were dead on. Install went great. I have ran into problems shooting directly to side panels and ut cabinets. For some reason It usally shows the cab way out of square. I have since been putting masking tape on the side of the cab and this has fixed the problem.
Still, hands down any type of digital templating system is better, more accurate and faster than the stick method.
Mark, Well I guess if thats what works for you and it gives you peace of mind then who are we to argue. I did alot of stick templates in the past but man would I hate to go back.
We still do stick template full height backsplash after the tops are in and I guess thats not so bad. I need to get with the guys at laser products to get the adapter to shoot backsplash templates. Man that would be a time saver on the install.
Travis, Owen,
The main thing is to make sure the dang tripod is as level as you can get it. They don’t really stress that enough.
Owen, my point on the targets is that – if you use a target set at splash height – and the countertops are out of level front to back, you throw the distance off.
One thing I still like templates (stick) for is you can make decisions on the jobsite that you might not otherwise catch until you upload a digital template file. If the cabinets aren’t all straight (like usual), the stick method allows for an easier compromise for the depth that a template system won’t give you.
We just tem plated a l-shaped top that is currently two different levels that will become one piece. NP.Travis I found your point about Full Bs interesting. We do the same thing template after the new top is install. Separate install price as wellJon, I have always done it that way. Its kind of a pain but well,,, it works every time.
I was talking with Andy a while back and he had a good idea. He said just go ahead and make your wood templates at time of measure but leave your bottom stick high. Then when install is done you just glue the bottom on and your ready to trim.
Never did it that way becuase I didnt want to carry sticks to job site with me. I figured I would just let the guys do it.
Yea that is the way we have always done it. We make the backsplash to size and sanded. Then we just put back the FHSP template and add a stick to the bottom sitting on the finished countertop. Then just make the final bottom cut and it is ready to install.
It is easier like this because you only have one day on the install instead of going back. Plus you can nest the pieces much better when they are all cut at the same time.
FEDSAWDAVE wrote
Anyone use zip ties to hold their template material together?
Which brings me to my next point. DONT SMOKE CRACK
TOM, I agree the tripod should be as level as possible. I’ve also had a lot springy and sagging floors. Sometimes I can see the beam shift as I shift my weight. I see what you mean as far as the targets, and that’s my point.. If the tripod shaft was stable you wouldn’t have to worry about targets in the first place, just level the tripod, raise the head up, point and shoot.
So then GShell, you have two requests that the tripod level requirements be addressed. Oh, and think about a better tripod real soon. Thy customers hath spoken.
Does Dan read this forum? You too, bucko.
I have to say, all in all, it’s a great piece of equipment that justifies the price. I just can’t bring myself to pick what I’m going to consider the cabinet face. I do it back at the shop and it takes more time making sure I don’t cheat a cabinet for overhang. And corner cabinets are always out of square, so you have to rely on another averaged run, but without the anchor in the corner. You make that decision on the jobsite nice and quick with stick.
This, by the way, is a problem in all digital template systems, far as I can tell.
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