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Check out the following web site. http://www.solidsurfacesurplus.com. It appears that they will sell sheets, sinks, and adhesive to anyone. So much for requiring to be certified.
Badboat, welcome to the Fabnet. At it’s inception this company was just selling remnants, which could actually help fabricators that were in a pinch. The fact they are are now selling sheets and bowls is upsetting. What this allows is for someone to buy sheets from them, fabricate them in their garage (no overhead) and sell countertops for less than fabricators do, albeit with no warranty.
I’m sure the fact that their would be no warranty would not be mentioned to a customer.
I don’t know if the manufacturer’s are aware of this, but if I found that company was buying from my distributor, and reselling to the general public, I would either change product or confront my distributor.
The other solution would be to bury your head in the sand and pretend it’s not happening.
This company is in Phoenix Arizona 85031, if anyone shares the same distributor.
Looks like they are selling Avonite, Mystera and Formica sheets. I saw Avonite sinks featured as well.
I offer all three brands currently, although no one has picked Mystera or Formica sheet goods for their project. My Avonite sales are way down, but I think that is just the solid surface market being depressed the last year or so.
So we know all three brands advertise or watch this forum, so what is the deal here? This needs to be cleaned up if I am to keep these boxes out where people can see them.
This type of marketing is such a slap in the face for the shops that do our best to put out a quality product. But, everyone in this business knows that fabricators sell what they recomend, so it is not like we have to put up with it.
Let’s give the three companies a few days to hear about this and decide what to do. Maybe they will decide that fabricators are ilrelevant in the changing market.
Thanks for the welcome. I contacted someone at avonite who was going to bring it up the chain and said he would let me know what he finds. We are Certified Master Fabricators/Installers for avonite and hope that the distribution of thier product to Certified Fabricators is a nationwide policy not just a local one.
Hello. My name is Kyle and I am one of the creators of SolidSurfaceSurplus.com. I feel like I am going out on a limb here to defend our operation, but I feel it is important to do so because one of our main goals is to work with and help fabricators, not hurt them and drive away their business. As Norm stated, we started out only selling surplus material, which is our focus, and what we do well. Our main customer base includes sign makers, pen makers, healthcare products, artists, gun handle makers, crafters, boaters, RV’ers, teachers, woodworkers, and yes, DIY weekend-warriors in-their-garage save-a-buck types. Shouldn’t these people have an opportunity to explore the wonderful qualities of Solid Surface material? The majority of fabricator shops would turn down most of these people if they asked for products. In short, we try to serve a market where there is a need and a demand.
Regarding our full sheet lines, none of our full sheet products come with a warranty, and we make it very clear to our customers that if they do want a warranty, they need to go with a fabrication shop. The majority of those who do buy full sheets from us are typically building counters for themselves, or for their family and friends. These people likely wouldn’t go to a fabrication shop anyway because they like to DIY. Many customers have told us that they otherwise would have gone with tile or attempted concrete. We won’t deny that people are making counters, because they are and should be able to. We don’t feel as though you should view our customers as a loss or competition to your business. In fact, we have a great deal of interest in supporting fabricators, rather than competing with them. Here are a couple of programs in the works to give you an example.
Coming soon – A Fabricator Directory for the other 90% of our visitors.≈nbsp;
90% or more of the visitors to solidsurfacesurplus.com, like most internet shoppers, are looking for the best value for their money. We want to direct these people to certified fabricators in their area. We want to advertise the professionalism, quality, and experience that they would get with a fabricator. After all, offering this service to them will serve the needs of the majority of the visitors to our site (which is a three way benefit to everyone). If you want to be listed, just send your basic business contact info and when we launch we will let you know. You will be able to log in and modify this information at your leisure.
Surplus Trade-in & Buy-back program
We were hoping to wait another week or two before announcing it on TheFabricatorNetwork, but in light of this forum posting I thought I’d go ahead and mention it. I’d also like to mention that we are interested in any feedback you might have regarding this new program. We are in the final stages of developing a surplus trade-in / buy-back program with three options. Option one allows fabricators to post their surplus material for sale on our site at no charge, and upon sale we would take a small percentage of the sale. In Option two, we buy all the surplus from the fabricator for an agreed rate per sqft and freight it to our facilities. In option three, in return for your surplus material, we would give a dollar-value per sq-ft credit to use on any products for sale on our website. An interesting tidbit is that option three was an idea suggested by a participating fabricator. If you are interested in helping us test any of these programs, please feel free to contact me at kylec@solidsurface.com
I am sure there will be plenty of people who will continue to disapprove of our business, but it is important that we put our two cents (and a few cents more), for what it’s worth. If you have any other ideas that we could implement on our site that could help to serve fabricators, then please let us know. Our philosophy is to be very open to new ideas and directions.
Thank you for taking the time to read my (rather lengthy) response.
Kyle
Kyle, here is the problem. You say that you are selling to do it yourselfers for use in their own homes. Well that’s great if these people are never going to move to another house.
The fact is, the average time people in this country stay in a house is four years. So some unsuspecting family, WILL move into this house and get a taste of Solid Surface, not just any Solid Surface, but some garbage that a DIYer installed with a jigsaw. This WILL give the industry a bad name if this practice is allowed to continue.
I understand that this country was built on free enterprise, but there shouldn’t be two sets of rules, or two types of countertops, one with a warranty and one without, that’s ridiculous, and it’s bad for the industry.
Good luck with your endeavor’s, although I believe you have alienated every Certified Fabricator/Installer on here, and beyond.
To put this in perspective, what would you think if Ford Motor Co. built two different F150 pickups, one with a warranty, and one without a warranty built by the janitors at the plant, who have no training whatsoever. I guess it would be ok if they only sold them to the other janitors, give me a break.
Kyle,
If you are truly wanting the surplus side of your business to suceed, this was a major blunder. As Norm said, selling to uncertified shops, or just anyone who wants it is incredibily short sighted.
Talk about coming full circle, almost a year ago I found this site and soon posted about Avonite being part of a deal like this. To their credit, they quickly did the right thing and stopped the online sales to the DIY company. I agree that the type of person likely to try this wouldn’t be a customer of ours anyway, but better they hack a tile job or cement top than a name brand material like Avonite, Formica or Mystera.
It is really simple. If you want to be in this industry and sell service or product to fabricator, it would be foolish to be a part of something that will trash our industry. To be certified, I had to sign an agreement that included not to sell sheet goods to others. If a plaque maker wants some blanks, I can provide them in blanks, but not strips or sheets, making it near impossible for them to hack out a top. Why should you be able to break this agreement with Avonite, when I can not? If Avonite has changed the policy, surely they would have let their regular shops know so they can sell sheet goods as well.
Even if it were allowed, it would be cutting my own throat, and my opinion it would be stupid to do this and start a race to the bottom on prices.
Trying to make this go a way by some possible referals from a directory? The brands do this already, or Surface Fabrication does. Not likely a DIY site will lead to many leads. The other program seems to benefit you more than me, so why would I consider it if you are in direct competition?
Paint it anyway you wish, but I always said that even with training, a new fabricator will butcher their first job. At least with certification, the warranty is in place or the brand makes the fabricator make it right. I have been paid to clean up messes from new fabricators, not a profitable endevor. What you guys are doing will harm the entire industry and benefit only a few.
Legal, but not good for the future. That about sums it up.
If the distributor/manufacturer knows about it, you are free to do with this material whatever you wish. Like Al put so well, you ain’t doing us no favors.
That said, I am sure there are planty of craftsmen, or detailed do it yourselfers that might make some positively acceptible countertops. I would suggest you provide them with whatever manufacturers’ version of DuPont’s CTDC 117 is the most recent, just to give yourself some cover. Have them sign that they received it.
Just remember, when the rest of the lot screws up this or that, they won’t be cussing out themselves. On the plus side, the wife may actually tell her friends – quietly – that it really was her man that done it wrong.
There are some interesting points in your responses that I appreciate, and we will do our best to take them into consideration as we proceed with our business. I feel that comparing it to janitors building a Ford F150 is a little extreme. Perhaps a comparison to a home improvement related field such as cabinetry, plumbing, electrical, flooring, tiling, decking, carpentry, mechanic etc would be a little more appropriate. Each of these fields have certified professionals, but notice that anyone can purchase the materials needed, and no doubt that we’ve all tried a hand at more than one. Sure, there are hack job DIYs out there who will screw up anything, but there are also some very determined, educated, talented craftsperson’s out there who should have the same right to this material as a certified person.
As I said before, we are very interested in working with and supporting fabricators in any way we can. I understand that I may not be able to sway some of your perspectives today, but I do hope that someday we can see a little more eye to eye. I’m certainly not interested in a shouting match.
Kyle
Kyle I was going to sit back and watch this thread but I must comment of the RIGHT of non certified person to purchase material.
We as certified people and shops spend a lot of time and money to keep our certifacation up in order to make a living in something we like to do. The manufactures of these productes dictate to us as to what we can and canot do as far as the product is concerned and to include the size of our shop. They have dictated (by way of a very thick book, Corian) how we can fab. and install to their specks. They will not let us sell sheet goods out the door, if we tried they will jerk our certifacation and there goes our livelyhood. Until we get the same RIGHTS as the DIY’s what do you except us to say.
I don’t think anyone of us want to restrick you from you way to make a living but we also do not understand why our suppliers are willing to stab us in the back by the limitations they put on us.
I started doing this type of work in around 1975 in the Midwest when Corian came out and you really could not do much with it other than sell 3/4 inch and run a router bit down it. I have seen the Mfgs start letting anyone in to do the work and have everything screwed up, then going to school in order to pull their out a wringer so they don’t have all the problems with warrenties, and now we start all over again.
I may just be rambling but if we are to talk about RIGHTS less talk about the RIGHTS we were promised by the Mfg. that they change at their whim.
William
William,
It is important to know the law regarding “second sale” of materials. I’m no lawyer, but I know the law regarding resale of materials is significantly less restrained than first purchase. I don’t think the material manufacturers have much to say about that.
Also, bear in mind that, if you were here in the pioneering days, we had no restrictions on who we could sell material to. It was only about the time of joint adhesive that restrictions were beginning to come out. It wasn’t until the warranties that there was tighter control. If there are no warranties in this direct sale, I don’t see why there should be the restrictions.
You are correct about the two-facedness of it all, but haven’t you noticed the way warranties have been getting watered down over the last few years? I think that tops will be sold with an optional warranty before very long. After that, there may be no warranties except the kind you get in an electronics store.
Tom, you are right of course and all we can do is roll with the punches mostly. I was just letting off a little steam. It just fries my A”” that we as fabricators are required (and rightly so) to do jobs as per the Mfg. speck or have the possibility of these same Mfg. pulling their product from us while they are willing to basicaly sell to anyone.
I have refused to do some jobs that would not fly for warrenty and made some people upset about it. I always take the time to explain and try to educate each customer as to what we can and cannot due with the product they pick. I don’t think this will happen over the net.
William
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