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On this bench seat I did in a shower, the front of the seat is lifting away from the tile, at least a quarter inch at the front. I siliconed the seat on with plenty of silicone. Is there another adhesive I could use that would hold better than silicone? This seat is 10 feet long so there must be alot of movement.
Yep, If I had that shower there would be “LOTS” of movement on that seat too!
Nothing is better than silicone for that. Maybe your surfaces were not clean enough or too slick. I always rough up the back of any solid surfuce with 60grit to help the silicone grab. if you glued directly to Durock, that surface is too flacky. A skim coat of thinset will cure that.
One thing that makes movement in showers is water. If there is a small leak where the seat meets the tile, and water is getting under the seat, the material will cup away from the moisture. What was the substrate under the seat? I’m hoping the answer isn’t masonry with a little backer board adhered to it.
Len, it was concrete block with a piece of durarock on top, then Noble Seal TS waterproofing membrane attached to that.
Is there an air gap between the masonry and the durock? Is the center hollow at least?
The manufacturers do not warrant installation over masonry, even with a layer of durock or water resistant GWB sandwiched in between, UNLESS there is an air gap behind the durock. The reason is that without that separation, condensation can form on the back of the sheet and become trapped. Sooner or later it will cause delamination.
I’m not saying that this is definitely the cause of your problem, but it would be the first place i would look. Check for signs of cupping away from the moisture.
Secondarily, I’d be interested to see how well silicone sticks to Noble Seal. No manufacturer has tested the assembly, but Noble Seal claims silicone will stick to it. The reason I know is that we are about to do 1,200 showers where masonry walls are involved, and Noble Seal was suggested by one architect. When I asked the manufacturers if they had tested wet walls over Noble Seal, the answer was no. When I asked if they would honor the warranty in case of delimitation, they pointed to Noble Seal and said essentially, “Noble Seal says it will work.” Meaning in case of failure, they would point to Noble Seal. I won’t take the risk of installing showers in any way other than what is referenced in the manufacturer’s own catalog data.I’d like to get a piece of Noble Seal, attach it to the back of a 1/4″ panel, let it set for a week and see how easy it is to remove.Incidentally, what the manufacturers will warrant is this: 7/8″ hat channel on the masonry, then cementitious backer board or moisture resistant drywall, then the panel. Some recommend a visqueen membrane over the hat channel and before you install the backer board. This applies to interior masonry walls. My understanding is that exterior masonry walls are not indicated, and especially not subterranean masonry exterior walls.Len, this installation is almost two years old. I am assuming that the initial silcone caulking at the juncture between the tile and the solid surface was not 100% to begin with, thereby letting water infiltrate between the solid surface and the waterproofing membrane.
The initial compliaint was there are signs of a leak at that half wall on the end. The only thing I could think of is that the waterproofing membrane is not 100% because even if it got under the solid surface, it shouldn’t have leaked.
I am going to pull up the seat tomorrow and dry everything out, then apply Laticrete Hydroban waterproofing membrane (roll applied) over the existing Noble Seal membrane (they are compatible, already checked), then reinstall the solid surface seat.
The seat is “L” shaped, hopefully it doesn’t break trying to get it off.
I’m only on the hook for a year on this job, but it was a pricey one so I am going to fix it anyway.
3m 5200. its a poly urathane adhesive. you can glue fittings to a hull and splash the boat and your good to go. Very tough to get the fittings off later.
I’m sure the Poly is a good glue and will help. But there is a difference between attaching a widget to a boat hull, and trapping moisture behind a piece of solid surface. It can curl like a potato chip.
The key is keeping moisture from behind the panel in the first place.
Hey Norm,
This is the reason we hate, no despise seats in showers. I have never seen one that does not have moisture under it. I will there was a guaranteed answer. We just put tons of silicone around the entire perimeter and hope for the best.
I got the seat off today without breaking it, although I did take out five tiles in the process. Not a problem, there were extra tiles on the job.
The top of the seat was wet, I dried it out for three hours with a fan. The Noble Seal membrane was not longer attached to the Hardibacker it was applied to with thin set (as per specs).
I cut the membrane out except for three inches around the perimeter. The remaining three inches I seated down to the backer board with Noble Seal 150 sealant, it’s like a thick caulk made for the product.
After that I coated the backer board and the remaining membrane with two coats of Laticrete Hydroban and replaced the broken tiles, than grouted the tiles.
I would have re-installed the solid surface seat today but I wanted to wait until the grout was dry so the silicone would stick.
I am going to re-attach it with silicone tomorrow. This time along with the dabs of silicone I am going to go heavy around the perimeter just as Andy suggested.
If it comes loose again I am going to tile it.
Hi Len, I put a link up here about 5200. Seriously, you dont use this stuff if you want to ever get it apart. It seals out water and has amazing structural strength.http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtMXfXnXfXEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666– I use it when I do shower pan membranes and attatch aluminum angle for solid surface bench seats to walls in showers and steam baths.
Hi David,
Thanks for the info, and I’m sure the glue is great. The point I was trying to make is that if you have moisture on the back side of the panel, regardless of whether it will stick or not, you have a problem, and it’s not limited to delamination. We did a job a while back (after hurricane Katrina) where we installed 2,000 showers at one job site. The local conditions were very humid, and the house were built to LEED Gold or Platinum status. They were just about air tight.
We started to experience panels popping off in certain units, and almost always on the same wall in the unit. It was a complex set of circumstances, but mostly related to HVAC condensation above the ceiling. You’d be amazed how much air can get sucked behind the panels via the cutout for the shower control valve, if the caulking bead isn’t 100% on the back side of the panel, in an airtight house.
Anyway, we had manufacturer’s chemists and engineers out to the job site, tried every kind of adhesive they could proffer, but with no better results than silicone when moisture was trapped. The worst problem was mold, and these units were only a few months old at this time! Some of the walls were black, and had to be abated. Many had not even been used yet.
The owner of the project decided to use fasteners with decorative washers to prevent any future failures, but of course this won’t solve the moisture problem, it will just keep the panels on the wall. They also had to go back and retrofit many of the hvac units to solve the moisture problem.
In Norm’s case, when you have a panel with no air gap, condensation can form on the back side of the seat, even without a leak, due to condensation. At least this is what the manufacturer’s tech guys have warned us about, and since we work on multiple unit projects, I don’t want the risk of using methods that are contrary to the instructions developed by the manufacturer. Otherwise the problem is ours alone if there is a failure.
I’ll definitely try your glue recommendation for accessories, thanks.
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