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Posts
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Looks like the latest crop of stoners has thrown in the towel. Here is what one of them posted.
Posted Sep 08, 2007 11:28 AM Al, we are backing down not because our argument is lost, as you infer. In fact, quite the opposite.You are not being “shouted down” as you claim either and to be quite honest, none of us has called you any names or have posted replies to you in any aggressive manner.
You on the other hand can claim no such graces. If you are out-evidenced, you choose to ignore the facts and start claiming that you were “called names”. Then, oh so subtly (…NOT – this is from the sarcasm scene in Borat, in case you missed my meaning) you proceed to infer that we are all stupid boobs with no integrity or intelligence, lack of experience and poor product knowledge to boot.
You insist on discussing issues that have no place in a consumer forum and keep harping on the same limited number of “unbiased” (NOT – again to quote Borat…) articles as if an increase in the loudness of your argument would drown out the common sense presented by the other side.
To have any kind of conversation with you is tiring and counter productive. You refuse to accept the proof you are given, in stead trying to disprove the esteemed scientists (all impartial and with nothing to gain from the stone industry as a whole – the polishing articles, being an example here) by just loudly repeating some nonsensical argument you came up with out of thin air. It seems like you get a certain amount of satisfaction by trying to push everybody else’s buttons.
If you have any technical argument worth having, please take it to the appropriate forum. StoneAdvice, FindStone or StonePowerhouse would be the ideal venues for discussions on the physics of polishing, the functionality of sealers or the myth that stone is radio active. As you have so clearly implied in your other posts on any of these subjects, we just do not make the cut intellectually to be able to keep up with you. Mayhap the geologists, geophysicists and other stoneworking professionals that hang out at those sites woul be able to match your mental prowess.
We are backing down to allow you all the space you need to make a complete and utter fool of yourself.
While you are busy having your tantrums, we will continue to educate the folks on this and any other forum we may find and be useful on. We promote stone through education. We do not promote stone by preying on the fears consumers might have and by bad mouthing any competing products.
Speaking for myself here – I refuse to be baited by you again. Much as it grieves me to see misinformation being spread about the stone I am so passionate about, I will not again get in a urinating contest with you. I can spend my energy much better somewhere else.
Again I apologize to the consumers on this forum for absolutely boring you to tears and for responding in discussions so absolutely out of place on a consumers’ forum. I hope you give me the opportunity to make amends.
Regards,
Here is my responce.
Stonegirl, you close by saying you refuse to be baited again, with plenty of bashing before hand.
As to the name calling, you called me stupid, dumb and lacking in common sense, which got your posts deleted after another person complained. You can not come up with one instance where I called any of you names, yet if your posts allow others to infer negative things, well, that should be thought about before posting.
As to the scientific studies not being given respect, you guys have posted only one so far, the one on grinding glass! I didn’t knock it, it was pretty good, in fact it mentioned that quartz specifically was not subject to the brittle/ductile tranistion, as you had claimed it did.
On the other hand, you guys have repeatable refused to accept the radiation studies or the bacteial studies on granite, despite them being 100% unbiased, being done by scientists in universities or NASA funded organizations. Even now you refer to them as “articles” instead of the proper term “studies”. These were all published for peer review, unlike the two Snyder studies you guys depend on for marketing.
And who are you to say what these people can be allowed to read? They ask questions all the time about countertop materials.
I refuse to accept the proof? I point out that it mentions granite nowhere, and specifically excludes quartz from the discussion on brittle/ductile transition? Try reading the studies to see if they are relevant before attempting to use them.
I am sure you would love to take this to a place where consumers wouldn’t be able to find it, just like the granite black list was removed from public view after it became known over at gardenweb. You guys showed up here to do your best to shout down the discussion, were there any better suited to do so over at the stone sites, they would show up as well.
Any respected geologists or geophysicists would not react to this information as you have. They would more likely read the entire studies and point out valid issues instead of doing personal attacks.
And the only ones who found this offensive are people that depend on stone sales for a living or those who want to justify a purchase.
The last day or so, they are keeping their mouths shut for the most part. When I post contrary info to their misinformation, not much is saidin response.
As it should be if they can’t attack the validity of the info.
Here is a link to the entire thing, http://boards.hgtv.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4841057842/m/1761039233
Here is the link where they accepted the debate challenge, then quickly folded after trotting out an illrelevant study about grinding glass.
http://boards.hgtv.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4841057842/m/2951033333
Next,,,,,,,,,,,
Tom,
That’s a list of stone that the Granite guys have made up warning other fabricators as to the potential trouble you can have with fabricating or finishing. Helpful if you’ve never done a certain color. Let’s you know what porblems others have had and will hopefully help you avoid those same problems.
Well, that is what damage contol is saying the black list was. Here is one page, the finial page so you can decide for yourself. Note the comments like “crap”, “never again”, “having lots of epoxy on hand”, and my favorite “crumbling like blue cheese in my hands”. No doubt that the black list was a mix of hard to fabricate granite and those that should never be fabricated like Matrix.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg081714169941.html
Look down about halfway to a huge cut and paste that contains the last page of the black list thread over at stoneadvice.com.
Note this “edit” named remans1 screaming to the rafters that I dare to post this info in public. “edit” supposedly has corian in his kitchen and doens’t work in the granite trade, but I doubt all of it. Notice that the original poster’s granite was on the list, yet this “edit” claims that posting the black list is illrelevant to answering the question.
The stoners are caught with their pants down after trying to supress this black list that THEY made. They know I have a copy of most of it, so they can not sanitize it and repost, yet they are sure it will be the end of the stone business if consumers hear of it.
The third page contains some posts by consumers saying that they were using the thread to choose their granite, and over at garden web, many consmumers admit using it as well. Only when I linked to it did it disappear into the “dark room”.
“Edited for disrespectful comments”
A ban would be in order at our house…
Is this the purpose of The Fabricator Network?
An unmoderated free for all – No Thanks!
Kevin, First welcome. You must understand this forum is not a band of rouge lions as you my think. Things get posted ,many agree, many disagree some have been riddled full of holes and come back and continued to participate and contribute some have been banned. We have all had respect for each other good or bad. Stick around ,debate and continue but grow some skin! (respectfully said) David G.
Mike G wrote
Tom,
That’s a list of stone that the Granite guys have made up warning other fabricators as to the potential trouble you can have with fabricating or finishing. Helpful if you’ve never done a certain color. Let’s you know what porblems others have had and will hopefully help you avoid those same problems.
Mike,
Sounds like a worthwhile list.
Does it look legit? If so, I’d like to see it. Not to sell against stone, just to make my customers aware, if they’re deciding between stone species, it gives me one more tool to help them.
Al,
Your laying it on a bit thick.
kdnoel,
If Al has been called the things he says he’s been called on the other forums, your different standards in banning is interesting.
He goes over the top sometimes, but he backs up his claims. What, by the way, is wrong for using truth to sell against a material, anyway. I never got that.
If you don’t mind, and if you choose to stick around, I’d like to ask your opinion on some of our presumptions about stone.
Hello Tom, The Black List is on the link Al listed below, just click on to it and scoll down until you see over fifty in a list. His most recent post on the garden web….interesting reading…That other guy ain’t going nowhere, he might not post, but it is in his blood,He’ll be reading us. Once you research Fabnet as he has been doing and seen all the multi resources and honest opinions of others , where is he gonna go? he’ll be back under a different name, mark my word…. And i’ll bet ya ten to one, even if he doesn’t change his name, we will say how are ya? welcome back, BUDDY we missed ya, have any new information on the benefits of stone? We would love to hear them, what do like is some seem to call us fabnetters everything in the book but LIARS
Gene,
Thanks. I’ll check it out.
If the gentleman does come back under a different nic, it means he put his hand out. I’m inclined to take it.
Tom M wrote
Al,
Your laying it on a bit thick.
kdnoel,
If Al has been called the things he says he’s been called on the other forums, your different standards in banning is interesting.
I agree with this. Al, maybe ease up a bit for the sake of working toward a solution. We all agree that there is a problem from both sides.
kdnoel,
I posted on the SFA and to say that some were rude is putting it lightly. I understand that everyone does not see eye to eye so I let it go. Maybe you could do the same and we can work this out.
I have to agree with your post Tom,
This is a forum for fabricators,(even though you let old expatriate tekkies like me post) its not product exclusive, and all are welcome. Its not un moderated either. Its moderated pretty well IMO. While others claim to be information Central, this site really fills that function the best for me and many others. Healthy debate is good, as long as it doesnt go overboard and descend into name calling.
Now some people feel strongly about issues, and have pride in thier products, and thats a good thing also. I hope at the end of day, what comes out of this is a better understanding of products, the strengths and weaknesses of each. Ive seen this site grow, and include tool after tool to help fabricators. Fabricators helping each other with advice, MSDS, Cad Files , and fab manuals posted for all. Its really a great site and I have to thank all, Andy and team for making this happen, and all who post with helpful advice and problem resolution.
B Rgds,
Lenny
Absolutley, we welcome back anybody, I wish they never leave in the first place but we’re all trying to live better and again people could call us anything but they can’t call us liars.
I really don’t think Al is spreading it on thick, more less this cat is spreading it very thin. Its hard for me myself to walk on egg shells around people, in my experience when you sugarcoat people later on they show their true colors anyway. reminds me of employees that say they’re the best ,then you get to 30 days and they do just enough to keep from getting fired .there are other Stone reps who can really help us out,I am so interested in this stone thing its driving me nuts, i have been researching my butt off, but if it came up in arguement id lose because I haven’t done one single stone top all i can say is what i read, it seams when i talk to a guy about Stone complaints….its like I punched him in the face, i just want to know is it true, can never get a straight answer!. The name of those forums have Stone only in them we are multi service, right off the bat we letting people know we have friends who use all kinds of multi surface, I do mica and still say it is more scratch resistant than brown acrylic SS,we all get along here on fabnet. People That run from problems,obsticles,etc more than likely been running all their lives and would probaly have useless information for us anyway.
For those of you who have real questions about stone, and ES… You are welcome to post a question at Stoneadvice. If you need help in fabricating a difficult job, or have questions about sinks, seams or anything else, we will answer truthfully, and to the best of our knowledge and experiernce.
As for the chart…. I’m still undecided about that one.
Donny,
Welcome to the Fab Net. Thank you for offering to have us over there at stoneadvice to be able to answer questions.
I hope that those of us that can keep level heads and lay aside differences and know when it is time to agree to disagree can start to work tgether. As far as the Chart you will find that Andy is truley rtyind to put a general form for the consumer to help make an educated decision about what top is best for them. I agree that is a starting point for all of us to help inform the consumer abou what to expect and not to expect from the products they have to choose from.
Reuben
Hey Donny
First post over here… glad to see you here!
I’d also like to extend a big welcome to everyone here to post any question that can’t be answered here about natural stone.
Come visit us at http://www.stoneadvice.com everyone is welcome!
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