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Do all manufactures require seam blocks and some sort of substrate under their tops? Here in oklahoma city, a lot of companies are eliminating both. One fabricator told one of my guys that wilsonart will void the warrantee if you put any type of underlayment due to heat dissipation reasons.
I have four or five certifications in solid surface, factory trained in Avonite, the rest given by the salesmen after touring our showroom and shop. I also have a corian manul and three or four others, but not wilsonart. My understanding is that it is absolutly necessary.
Folks, am I wrong about this?
Al,
We use seam supports on ALL seams and corner blocks on all cooktop cutouts. We do 4″ most of the time on the seams even though most companies require less, and 6 x 6 on corner blocks. We also do a perimeter strip and one down the center of the top, and at bar overhang we do a full support, and we use moisture resistant MDF. Our support strips vary from ½ , ¾, to 15/16 thick depending on how much if any we want the front edge to lip over the cabinet. I know shops do it different than we do, but we have no warrantee issues on our seams or from our underlayment so for now we will continue with that method. Best way is to check with the manufacturers and see how they want you to do it. I have found that they may change things and leave it up to the sales rep to inform the fabricators, and that may not always happen. To my knowledge all companies reguire seam supports and corner blocks at the cooktops.
Shane
Shane, we do it like you do, can’t justify any other method till the manufacture allows it. We get variances on any and all possible departures from fabrication rules before we sell a job it is “weird”.
I have had customers and builders mad as hell because we used the substrate, as it has become that unusual in our market. We’ve lost jobs after we insist on following the rules. Most of the time the cabinets are built before we get involved so height is an issue. We will fax over a copy of the relevant fabrication rules and that might get them to shut up, but it is rare that you get another job from that contractor.
Plenty of work, but we could do more if we could find away a way to deal with this issue.
Thanks for the input.
Al,
We do all the requirments when possible. But let’s face it, sometimes it just can’t be done. For Example: in a garden window where the window cranks are in the way, you just can’t do a seam support.
We installed thousands of tops before all these requirements and really never had any problems. But when we install, we make sure the cabinets are perfectly flat. Once you get that, we have found that seams supports don’t add that much value. Place a piece of material that has been seamed together on a perfectly flat surface, Then jump up and down on it. It won’t break because it has full support.
Please don’t read this post and think that I don’t do seam supports. I think it helps. I just don’t believe that it does all that is claimed.
I don’t understand why it is such a big deal to anyone if you use a substrate. What are you suppose to do for cabinets that don’t allow for a drop down. We do a lot of tops on cabs that have the drawer’s right at the top of the cabs. Can you always have a 1” drop on the cabs? With out a substrate how can you do the seam supports? It sounds like the customers are dictating to you how to do your job? I don’t know what to tell you Al other than maybe it is time for you to go to the 3cm solid surface and do away with all substrate and seam supports.
Shane
Shane, thanks for the reply. Their issue is that most of the “stick builder” trim carpenters around here will build a 35.25″ tall cabinet, expecting a laminate top. So we add 1.5″ top and the stove won’t level up to the top of the countertops. The can get longer leveling feet, if they cared that much, but it easier for them to blame the counter top guy. I think some of the heat comes from other trades p.o’d at the money we get for our work and the fact that they aren’t allowed to do the work without certification. Plus, they might know just enough to think they know it all.
Yup, once in a while you get one that tries to dictate the way the job goes, isn’t happening here! I pointed out some concerns about a choice of engineered stone to a customer the other day before I quoted it and got a cold shoulder for doing it. Then they changed to absolute black granit, honed finish. I didn’t say a word, let them find out the hard way. Most customers are great, then there are those others 🙂
We are considering the 3cm material, even asked a few distributors about it. I am a little conservative, so am waiting for the product to shake out a bit. I noticed one or two complaints or concerns about it, but what do you expect for a new product.
Andy is right about some parts of some prodjects not being able to be built “right”, for instance back splash made out of scrap. Even when we do a spliced window sill, we don’t seam block since it is an easy to replace peice and we warn the customer before hand and give them the choice of using scrap for no charge or buying full size material.
It is my understanding that Dupont changed their specs for a seam block, it no longer has to be beveled on each side. If this is so then why haven’t the other manufacturer’s embraced this. Cutting the bevel is extra work and is sharp as hell.
Andy is right about some parts of some prodjects not being able to be built “right”, for instance back splash made out of scrap. Even when we do a spliced window sill, we don’t seam block since it is an easy to replace peice and we warn the customer before hand and give them the choice of using scrap for no charge or buying full size material.
I have never understood this concept of paying more or less for seams vs. no seams in SS. Isn’t this the beauty of the material. If I have 9 three foot cutoffs and can follow all basic rules for seams regarding corners and cooktops, etc., what difference does it make to the customer??
I am more than willing to stand behind my work. If we pull a bad seam, I’ll replace or repair the top. But this notion that a customer can dictate what material we use is garbage. The only time this applies is when we do veined or patterned materials (we do a fair bit of Mystera). Other then that, the way I want to build a top is my perogative. I would say any acrylic job with 30″ sheets and 4″ splash has an average of 6-8 backsplash seams, but who cares its a backsplash. The only time I order more material is when we do cove.
Maybe I am the exception.
Their issue is that most of the “stick builder” trim carpenters around here will build a 35.25″ tall cabinet, expecting a laminate top.
Al, you’re trapped in 1967. Head for the light. It’s your only way out! We will get you back. I swear!
This goes back to the 50’s, when linoleum countertops had a 3/4″ edge and metal trim for the front. The idea was kept when Formica became a popular alternative, and the front edge was often what was called a “snap-on” edge. It had a rise at the front top that acted as a no drip edge. Once contact cement made thge self edge feasable, everyone discovered that 3/4″ laminate looked cheap on the front. Because it was flooring guys, rather than cabinet guys who made most of the tops, there was no incentive to change the cabinet height as the countertops got thicker. This is why some older folks call build up “Build Down” edges. The edge would be built down over the face of the cabinets. Also the phrase “drop face” came into play. After the cabinet guys started making tops, it was worth their effort to change out to 34 1/2″ of height. This is my opinion, by the way, but I think I can back it up pretty well.
We don”t find many drop face jobs, since the practice was caught up in the early 70’s, and most of those kitchens have been updated by now. Snap on edges were available in 1″ (3/4″ substrate plus laminate when it was an honest 1/16″), 1 1/2″, for a 1 1/4″ sustrate, and 1 5/8″ for a 1 1/2″ substrate.
Tom
Tom, cool to hear the background on countertops, it’s evolution. Who would have guessed floor guys did the countertops. I had heard of the use of linoleum, but just assumed a cabinetmaker did it.
We do 34.5″ cabinets, thus 36″ finished plus whatever they level out to and minus finished floor.
I don’t knock those stick builders work too much, replacing that crap they put in keeps us plenty busy.
Tom, your post about the evolution got me to thinking, what else do we do just because it was done that way in the past. Makes me want to look over every process in our shop and try to think outside the box.
I read a book on effeciency a few years ago that had this good example of doing things the same way. Seems in WWII, while building up forces in england for the D-day invasion, the military sent teams of experts to watch training and manuveurs in the interest of cutting waste and improving processes. One of the teams watched artillery crews firing shells. The four man crew would each do his task, the truck pulling the gun would back into position, all hands would unhitch and emplace the gun in record time, then each man did his assigned task,one laying in the gun or aiming it, another would open the breach and insert the shell and close the breach., while an officer watched over all activities and gave the command to fire. The experts noticed one man that stood back twenty to thirty yards, with apparently no duties at all, but just to stand there. After questioning the crew, still no job duties assigned to this man were known. Surely they were missing some important function, so they went up the ranks asking all what the duties of this extra man were. No one knew, just that all gun crews had four men in them. Finially, it was suggested that they ask a few of the retired gunners to see if they knew the duties of the fourth man.
The first retiree questioned, replied “Oh, that guy held the horses so they wouldn’t wander off.”
I wonder how much money is spent in our industry “holding the horses”.
I recently hired a guy that held the horses…oh wait, that guy bought off-road tires and instant messaged the girl in the office. He is no longer with the company, we got rid of the horses (girl and internet) so we don’t need him anymore.
At BTP we get a unusual view the world of SS, as all we do is fix problems. We have seen plenty of reasons over the years for the manufactures requirements, and some of resoning behind them .
I would think that as a Fab it must be hard at times to balance production with requirements, and ensure that they are being meet in the feild.
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