[Max]

Hello fellow templaters (etc..),

I am looking for some feedback on accuracy achieved using the proliner from those that are using it to template kitchens, nurse stations, and anything where accuracy matters. I have been using it for a few weeks now and have been unimpressed with its accuracy and training manual/cd. Leapfrogging seems to create more discrepancies even when the pods are taped down to keep them from sliding or tipping when touching the pointer to them. Is anyone here using the system creating templates that actually match up exactly? I went through another thread that showed the same thing digitized and cut several times and how off they were. That is a scary thought for me as I am responsible for the final product fitting properly the first time.

Has anyone been able to figure out what the smallest leap rhombus dimensions are? I cant seem to find any information in the book or cd that explains what the minimum distance between the pods should be. Leaping over a nurse station with an 8″deep transaction subtop seems to be impossible. Every combination Ive tried either gives me an error saying they are in line or too close.  The whole line of sight thing seems to create more headaches especially in very tight areas with returns and details required to be templated. 

On one of the previous templates we made I put the proliner directly in front of the nurse station to get as many lines as possible before the leaps to get the sides and back. I figured at least the first part of the template would be good. I took measurements and angles with a Bosch digital protractor. I used “first contour” to create my plane using the surface of the existing marble top which was level. The angles were slightly off.. For example 134.5 on the bosh protractor was 134.9 on the proliner. Some were closer but still worrysome. The lengths seemed to be off as well. After the first leap the accuracy on that side was off in relation to the first part of the template. The 2nd leap created the same issues just a bit worse. The nurse station is 26 feet at its widest points.

How have you guys/gals dialed in the leapfrogging in general and with limited spaces where putting them on different levels isnt an option? Do you check for accuracy or just let the installers deal with it? (The less my installers have to do on site, the better.)

Any help, information or links to any tech articles etc are greatly appreciated. I apologize if I come across so negative towards the proliner. I am used to the simplicity and accuracy of Phototop and as of this moment, Proliner worries me whenever I need more data not accessible with the first placement of the unit.

Selecting the correct compensation (left/right/none) is not an issue. I figured I’d throw that out there as Im sure that would be the first thing I’d ask someone with a similar post. Thanks again. (Sorry for the novel and rambling thoughts) 

[KCWOOD]

What Proliner are you using? At 26ft you should be able to reach it all. Do you have obstacles in your way?

[Max]

Proliner 8

Obstacles: The nurse station has many angles and returns not all visible from one position.. We are cladding the perimiter of the nurse station in this particular scenario. 

[Matt Rickard]

We run the PL8 but I have never had to do the leapfrog. Did you get training when you bought your machine or just trying to learn off of the manual and DVD?

If I were you I would give John Richerts of Prodim a call  888-229-3328. 

[Max]

Just trying to learn directly from the book and cd. No training. Practicing on the break room tops and walls. I have been setting up similar room layouts that I have come across in the field over last 6 years. The area is pretty open so I will template as much as I can see without leaping then I put tape down on the floor to represent walls that limit my line of sight. By limiting the footprint I can work in It resembles more of an actual jobsite than an ideal situation where no leaps would be required. Trying to leap with minimal work space is turning my hair gray. It doesnt seem to be suited for tight areas which Is what I seem to come across more often than not.

How have you been able to get by without using the leapfrog Matt? Do you have ways around it. I was told to tape a stick to the side of the cabinet, then extend/trim or fillet the line to get that information when you cant access it with the pointer or scanner from above? I want to master the unit before I start adding to it. The less I have to haul around the better. 

Thanks for the response Matt.  Also, where did you go for training?  I was under the impression that this was so easy to master that no training was required. I guess my problem is that not only am I responsible for the templating but also the drawings and cnc programs. If the shop guys do their job then I am the one responsible for any mistake. 

One last questions for now. Do you check the cabinet or existing surface/subtop for level to create your plane or do you just touch off of what is there. In this line of work, as you can probably confirm, we run into all types of cabinet installers.. From the ones that just leave you in awe at how level the entire cabinet is (front and back combined) to the ones that seem to not have a single level or plum surface to be found. I was thinking that I would also need to carry some sort of plate that I could level and touch off of that to create my level plane. A degree off and things get scary over longer distances.

[Max]

Quick example: Simple top. No leaps required but I will leap twice and re-template the same piece on the same layer in the same file. Tripod is secure. First contour on a separate area where I can hold level. Im not looking for accuracy with the dimensions for this test. Im looking for movement of each template after a leap with the same points selected. I printed a few labels with zeros on them and stuck them exactly where I wanted to pick so that all 3 templates would be almost identical. First I digitized the front face of the cabinet and walls. I created a leap which gave me no errors or warning messages. I moved the proliner over a few feat, connected the leap and digitized the walls again.. I created another leap using the same pods (which were taped securely to the countertop) and moved the proliner again to another spot. I connected the leap and digitized the wall again. Same layer, same walls, same points on the walls. The unedited result is in the attached picture. The tripod was secure each time, the pods were taped down and the points on the wall were the same each time.  The walls moved around about 1/4″ in relation to the front of the cabinet which is in blue. 

[Andy Graves]

1/4″ does not seem to be very accurate. I never liked the idea of having to move the tripod. One main disadvantage with the Proliner system. Everything else about it seems really neat. Too bad it only has a 16′ reach.

[Patrick McGrath]

It should not be and is not that complicated. The issues you describe make my head spin – it is really not complicated at all once the concepts are understood.

Search on You Tube for Mark Lauzon’s short video “My Proliner”.

Then call the US rep for Proliner and have him talk you through your issues. Can they put you in touch with another user in your area who would be prepared to share their experience with you because nothing beats seeing?

Given the cost of the machine you should expect Proliner to be proactive in helping you get going and my experience in Europe is that they are proactive because it’s in their interest if they want to generate more sales.

[Max]

I understand that it shouldnt be that complicated and I believe I understand it well enough to template something similar to what is shown in that video. It shows an ideal situation where you can access all the points you need from one position without having to leap. Unfortunately not all jobsites are ideal and leaps are required.

Im just really looking to find out, from fellow templaters using the proliner, if they are losing accuracy after they leap and what the smallest leap layout is. Ive emailed and talked to them before and what i understood is that i can leap with a smaller pod layout while ignoring the warnings but the accuracy would be affected which, as shown above, it is. Given this information and knowing that i dont come across many ideal situations out here, the thought of losing a 1/4 inch here and there or even just in 1 spot is scary.

The reason I am posting here is to hopefully come across some information from people using it that will not only help me out but maybe down the line help someone else in the same situation who is searching the message boards. I hope it doesnt come across as if I am bashing the product. Its very well made, i’m just worried it might not be able to do what I want it to do using the variables I come across. If the accuracy is there, without leaps, then i can see it being a great templating device for kitchens and situations where all points are attainable from one position.

Also, im looking for a pelican (or similar) case for it. What cases are you guys using? We re-purposed an old pelican 1620 but it is way too big to haul around active construction sites while also carrying a tripod and drawings.

Once again, any information is appreciated. I will make sure to post a solution if one is found when we talk to the prodim folks. Thanks

[Matt Rickard]

Max I am not a pro at the PL by any means, I use one for a week at a time while our template guy is out on vacation and such,but I do have about 1 1/2 years behind a LT55 so I do really have a grasp on this whole digital template process just not so much the functions on the PL.

If I understand you correctly you first digitized the entire rectangle in one sitting then started the process all over again but this time you moved the PL every time you had a new line segment. I hope I am right on this because that is what I am basing my answer on, so here it goes– If you measure the same object 3-4-5 times and never move the PL you will still come up with some inconsistencies, they should be minor but they will be there. Reason being this, 1st the angle you hold the stylist could be slightly different than the last,2nd if you don’t measure in exactly the very same spot on the cabinet (bows in wood or cabinet line just not straight) it will mess with you,the walls will get you every time(we all know how straight and true that can be) 

 So when you take all this into account it is very rare to have a template line up exactly with another of the same object, and this doesn’t matter what machine you are using. In a case like this the accuracy of the machine is what is throwing everything off. I think

Hope all that made sense 

[Mark Meriaux]

Max,

We have a Proliner v8, a PL v6, an LT-55XL, and I personally own a seat of E-Template.  Having used all of these, I will say that not one is best for all scenarios (for us). For dealing with your Proliner issues, I would offer that perhaps “leaping” is not the best method to capture the information on the jobsite. Your PL v8 also has a simple (but useful) onboard CAD program – use it.

Capture the key overall dimensions that you can record from a single tripod position. Also capture as many key areas where any details may need to be added. (ie, for a curved wall, you can “measure” either the inside wall or the outside wall, then offset to “create” the other side). Our process is the same with either the PL or the LT-55, we measure what we can, draw any other details, and take plenty of notes and manual measurements as verification/backup of what was measured. We also verify key measurements for fit with a tape measure, as you know the machines precision does not adjust for constrained areas – you’ll need to edit these manually.  This may sound like unnecessary redundancy, but it helps us to minimize mistakes – which sounds like your goal.

[Max]

Thanks for the replies Matt & Mark.

Im going to continue to use it and learn ways around its deficiencies. I understand it has the cad program built in and I guess I will just have to condition myself to not being able to “digitize” everything I could with my previous system. Its a step forward in certain aspects but a step back in others. It will take some time to adjust my thinking.. I kind of wish I was going from stick templates to the PL8..

[Author]

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