[Joe Rock]

Some of us are gathering fabrication rules and putting together a list of recomended universal fabrication rules to simplfy trianing of fabricators. The list will be a basis for the fundementalsof 1/2″ thick acrylic, not 100 pecent inclusive, i.e, polyesters, thicker materials like EOS, ect. The idea is that this will become an industry standard of minimal fabrication rules, to help weed out irresponsible fabricators from cutting corners and harming the solid surface industry.

Please read and offer clarifications or additions to rough draft. I’ll post corian rules early next week. Any one interested in helping out, send me an email and I’ll send you a word pad file of the post below. We need others experienced in repairing countertops to lead and offer advice.

Thanks to all, AL.

Avonite fabrication rules

inside corner radius 1″ dia

seam distance from inside corner 2″

seam over dishwasher/ heat producing appliance? no

seam in direct sunlight? no, in dark colors

seam in cutout? no

seam block required? width? yes, 4″wide

minimum lenght of inside corner block? 2″

expansion space between substrate and whatever? 1/8″

Expansion space left at wall ends/appliances? 1/8 to 3/16″ per 10 of run

silicone tile backsplashes/countertop joint? yes, no grout

Router cut required on curved/cutout cuts? yes

min radius cutout corners? 1/4″

sq ft of warrantee scrap required to be left? 2′

Wavy seam allowed? yes

hand sand seams before gluing? Grit? yes, 100 grit

use only manufactures adhesive for seaming? yes

Purge new tubes of adhesive? yes

clean seams with denatured alcohol? yes

sand faces of lamination before gluing? yes, 100 grit

minumum glue area for built up edges? 1 square inch

v grooving allowed? yes

solid substrate allowed? no

runner method for substrate allowed? width of runner? yes, 4″

min spacing of runners? 18 to 24″

gluing schedule for runners? spacing? hotmelt and silicone, 18 to 24″

Liquid nails allowed? no

Cooktop corner block size? 3″

min distance cooktop to backsplash? 2″ for 4″, 2.5″ for full height splash

manufactures heat tape required? layers? yes, 1

other makes of heat tape allowed? no

wall cladding glueing schedule 8-10″

substrate under seam blocks? yes

cabinet level specs 3/32″in 48″

different commerical hotwell fabrication rules? yes

max overhang (.5 thick) requiring no support? 6″

max overhang with substrate and brackets? 18′

metal sink anchors allowed? yes

max hp disposer allowed? .75 hp

[Jean Poisson]

https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=writely&passive=true&continue=http%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2F%3Fhpp2%3D&ltmpl=WR_tmp_2_lfty&nui=1

this is a link to google software to allow all of us to work on this list of fabrication rules.

[Boney]

Great idea, Shane, using the spreadsheet. Here is a link to the rough draft, only avonite filled in so far. send me your email address and I can add people to the collaborator list so they can modify it.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o02031672433237940694.3997136392146596217.00115718091847649594.6925209264398133413#

[Andy Graves]

Do I need to set up my own account before I can view the document?

[Shane Barker]

Al,

Good job, looks like it will work out great. When I logged on it went straight to the spreadsheet but it was read only. Do you need to allow access?

Shane

[Matt Wayne]

Shane, Andy, what is needed in the spreadsheet program is an email address for those who want to collarborate. Once it is posted on the sheet, a person from that email address is allowed to change the spreadsheet and can save it using another name. There is copy button in the tool bar so you can create a copy, make changes, and then resave using a new rough draft number. Then others can log on and take the document further while still keeping old copies for reference. I don’t know yet if the collaborators list will follow the new spreadsheet, but I will find out.

Andy, is there a safe way to post email address for each other? Something private that webbots can’t mine for spam addresses?

[chris]

Okay, so far we have Rueben, Shane, Andy and myself pitching in on the spreadsheet. If anyone wants to help out by reviewing or adding info, please send your email address to one of us so you can be added to the collaborator list. Once listed on the collarorators list, you can invite others to the list, view, change info, and add to the spreadsheet. Please follow these short rules:

If you want to make changes, please create a copy of the existing document and save using a higher rough draft number, ie, fabrication rules rough draft #2 for the first revision. Then you can make revisions without losing others versions.

Always check the box allowing everyone to view, but keep the collaborators by invitation only and funnel them through yourself or this site.

Please post an explanation for the changes, unless it is just adding a new manufactures info. Be ready for others to challange your understanding of the rules and allow a consensus to decide the finial version.

Please post a link to the new spreadsheet version with your explanation of changes on this thread.

Rules will be added as neccessary to keep this an orderly processs. From watching the quality of the posts on this site so far, I don’t think many will be needed.

All agree that Mory and Andy can step in at any time for any reason to add rules or offer guidence to this effort.

Please allow no politics or ego to enter into this discussion, lets keep the good of the industry as our primary goal.

Thanks to all for their help.

[Seth Emery]

I think this is a great idea. I do see some problems with it if it gets in the hands of a less-than open-minded consumer. I am not going to get on the spreadsheet and edit it, but here are some issues that I have with the Avonite fabrication rules.

1. Inside corner radius of 1″ – sometimes we do 1/2″ radius inside and outside corners on bumpouts. It makes the bumpout stand out more, which would be the purpose of having one and I wouldn’t want to have to contact a customer for every little decision like this.

2. Seam distance from inside corner of 2″ – I try to maintain this, but if you have an extra-deep countertop or the walls are majorly out of square, it makes more sense if you have to have the seam 1-1/4″ away from the corner rather than making a long seam on the deck.

3. No to other makes of heat tape allowed – I can see having to use the manufacturer’s adhesive, but this sounds like a monopoly

4. 18″ for max. overhang with substrate and brackets – Does this mean that you can’t do a 25″ deep top that is supported by a substrate, wall cleats, and 20″ deep brackets?

Have a nice day,
Seth

[Andrew]

Seth, at this time we are just gathering the data from all brands. We haven’t progressed to the point where we will ask for changes, but that will come soon. Keep in mind this is only a minimum fabrication rules list, manufactures can and will add their own to this list, after all, they pay for the warrantee repairs and suffer the most if a top goes bad. The intention as I see it, is twofold, one, to provide a way for manufactures to have a third party remove certification for the guys who don’t use seam blocks or substrate or cut corners in major ways. Two, is to allow training of new employees in basic methods. Kind of a three strikes and your out thing as long as a fabricator can repair the problem tops and clean the slate.

Now to address your concerns:

1. I have no problem with, I understand that staron allows this 1/2″ radius.

2. With a 30″ wide sheet, that gives you min of 4″ to play with. If over this, I suggest turning the sheet and add a seam so as to get the seam far enough away. When we have had a problem in the past, a call to avonite got a varience, usually on the spot when we reached the right guys.

3. Heat tape, I am no expert, but I have seen the difference between Avonites and the cheaper stuff. I understand why they want theirs’ used. Perhaps a brand can be found that meets the specs of avonite. I agree with you on the monopoly, but on the glue, isn’t most of it made by intrega anyway? If they don’t warrantee seam performance, how is there place to demand using their glue?

4. Is this like a desk area or like a dishwasher area? I personally don’t see the problem if it has wall cleats and substrate, although there will need to have a max span between cabinet supports or bulkheads.

On the less than open minded consumers, does anyone remember George? This will set up a industry standard minimum fabrication rules that a consumer can refer to when a fly by nite fabricator won’t put in seam blocks or substrate. On one of the granite sites, the stone fabricators are hollering for industry standards to keep the hacks from ruining the reputation of granite tops.

[Greg Miller]

Here is the latest link to the rough draft of fabrication rules. Anyone can view, if you want to offer suggestions or corrections, please do so. If you want to take responsiblity for posting a brands rules, please provide us an email and we can get you access to the site. Be sure and follow the rules on copying the spreadsheet before you make changes, so as to keep the original as a backup. Also, don’t redo others work till you post the changes here on this forum. I’ll add a way to know who posted which brands rules.

New link to revision #2 http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p1tkZU1DzMRx5Ma_0Xq54Nw

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help

Al

[Tim Ortiz]

Can someone who is a current Corian fabricator proof read the corian info I posted on the fabricator rules? Some of the info is suspect, it is what I understood the manual to say, but it did leave me scratching my head.

Here is the link, http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o02031672433237940694.3997136392146596217.00115718091847649594.4110759358666087476

If you find that changes are needed, please send me an email so I can add you to the collaborators list so you can make the changes. One if particular thing is the allowance for seams in cooktops, that just doesn’t seem right.

Thanks, al. al@thecarpentershop.net

[George Blanz]

al wrote

…

On the less than open minded consumers, does anyone remember George?

….

Tch, tch and tut, tut!

Actually, Al, I applaud this effort you are making (ditto for the Consumer Reports letter.) Us filthy, unwashed Consumers need to know why we shouldn’t just take the bid from the fabricator whose bid is $1000 lower than yours (because they cut corners and don’t do what the factory requires or recommends.) Un-savvy consumers aren’t any benefit to good fabricators, because they will just take the cheapest bid. Those fabricators on this board who have helped to answer MY questions have helped SOME fabricator who is trying to do things right, by helping me avoid those who DON’T. I try to pass that along, by passing along the knowledge I have gained in this process to other people I encounter who are also replacing countertops. Thanks, Al, for taking the time to put this together, and I hope some Corian installers WILL get involved and fill out the Corian column.

George

[Brady Ives]

George, I will try to be understanding and civil in my reply regardless of your provications. No one, including myself has ever refered to customers as “filthy, unwashed”, so drop that crap in your posts.

You aren’t helping anyone, not even yourself.

Now, get a life.

And please, choose granite for your countertop. There is a good website at findstone.com or stoneadvice.com, go pester them for a while.

[George Blanz]

Yeeesh, Al! I even used a “smilie” and everything!

The “filthy, unwashed” bit was intended to poke a little fun at myself, not you or any other fabricators. I honestly wasn’t trying to provoke ANYONE; I was trying to thank you for your work on what I feel is a great and worthy project. (Two, actually.) If you feel the need to spit in my face in response, fine; just have the dignity to do it offline.

I’m sorry you feel “pestered”. You’re always welcome to NOT reply to my postings; maybe you would feel less pestered that way. If you feel I should be banned from the board, you’re welcome to solicit Andy to have me blocked. In the meantime, Andy has stated repeatedly that all are welcome on this Forum, and that I should keep asking questions. He knows my email address, and he holds the keys to the kingdom (or at least, the Forum.) So I intend to keep asking questions, until the Admin of this board tells me otherwise.

And I really don’t need people like you (or Shane) suggesting subtly (or not so subtly) that I should get lost. Other people have been booted off the board for negative behavior towards others such as this, and rightfully so. It doesn’t look good for you, the Forum or the Industry. When and if you are ever appointed Board Policeman, you can rightfully take responsibility for booting out people you deem to be “unworthy”. In the meantime, if you can’t say something nice, just ignore the post and move on with YOUR life.

gb

[Reuben Hoff III]

AL,

Back to the subject at hand here. I’m sorry I haven’t had much time to look over things to add to the list, but everybody wants to have new tops etc. for Thanksgiving. Glad when can breathe and carve on the bird to releive the stress. Any way I did look at the spread sheet and thought I would post here about what Ithink is true about Dovae standards. I have used there product and when asked to fab it they wanted to klnow what I was certified in and I said Formica and Avonite their response was use their standards and you will be good. So I think for that column we can use either of those and call it good. If this is wrong and they do have a manual now please let me know. I also see Affinity is advertising on the site now and I think they are the same way as Dovaeas far as fab they except Formica and Avonite standards. Again if this is wrong let me know.

Reuben

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