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We did a remake (1/2″ on the new top) to settle a claim aginst an SSV top made by a hack.
The customer called with more problems from the other tops. I wrote in my report to W/A that this would be the case.
Anywaym in his conversation with me he said he heard there was a class action against W/A foir the SSV (not the old blue glue problem).
Can anyone confirm this?
Tom
Tom, talk about scamming real estate agent and consumer confidence…
Read here: http://laborlawtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-82272.html
Lots of parties share some blame her. the answer, I think, was a bit off-putting (if that’s a phrase).
But they did have a point about the inspection, or lack thereof.
Tom
I show a box of WilsonArt samples in my showroom, but have known about the ssv suit for several years now. Integrity leaves no choice but to bring it up for discussion if a customer picks one of their colors. I bet this has cost WilsonArt more money than it would have cost to replace the bad tops, not counting the lawyer fee’s. I have spoken to several burned Wilsonart SSV consumers, and none of them would consider buying another solid surface top.
We can talk about blame all we want but as fabricators we know the blame lands both in Wilsonarts lap, and the fabricator who saved a buck selling the junk, or got a leg up on the fabricator who refused to take a chance on selling it and quoted 1/2″ material and so lost the job. Yes, the original customer was cheap as well, probally went with the lowest bidder, yet we are either professionals or we wil sell anything to make a profit.
A few days ago I posted a thread about solid surface shower pans. I will probally sell them now that my concerns were put to rest, but not selling them till I know they are good is what should have happened with ssv. I still lose jobs to a local competitor cause he will install the crap in bathrooms, beating my estimates a few bucks by doing so. Customers don’t listen to the advice to check out the lawsuit before going with the cheaper bid, so I guess they will get what is coming to them, but so will our industry.
Everyone familular with the Swanstone early years? The problems they had and how they dealth with it? I use that story to sell the stuff. Integrity and honesty will pay off in the long run. If I was Aristec, who supposedly makes wilsonarts products currently ( and may have made the ssv for all I know), I would cut all ties with them till this was taken care of properly.
Anyone know exactly who did make the ssv for Wilsonart?
Al,
Aristech is the manufacturer of Gibraltar, SSV (now called something else [Acrylan?], and direct marketed by Aristech) as well as some of the foundations collection by Avonite. Avonite’s entry into the acrylic field was all Aristech. but it really doesn’t matter, since it’s all Mitsubishi (or was).
For the record, I have met, hosted on several discussion panels, and was warmly welcomed to Texas by WislonArt and their employees. From Bill DeGeatano and Kurt Haffner at the top, to Mike Weddington and Rob Moore in the middle, to Fred Bennet, my local rep at the local level.
Al, the President and Vice President of the Corporation came down and joined a round table with our State ISSFA Chapter. Their answers were so danged honest, that you had to admire them. I felt the same way when Kurt and Mike Weddington were in the House panel at the ISSFA thing I did.
To a person they are the most polite, professional group of people you could ever do business with, and they truly know how to make a fabricator feel important.
When they listen.
That having been said, example #4,237 why the warranty was a bad idea is WilsonArt and their sinks. When I get turned down on a warranty claim for a sink that has thermal shock cracking all over the bottom, and the top is only a couple of years old, rest assured I will never buy another sink from them again. Commercial spec. being the exception, but only after a stern warning to the customer. and a denial of warrant responsibility on my part.
Reason #4,238 is SSV.
Most of the problems with SSV were fabricator errors, some of which WilsonArt should have been able to forsee. We fabricators are a people that will make stuff. Tell us we can make stuff out of other stuff and we want to use that stuff to make new stuff. Then we think of newer stuff for the stuff that made the other stuff.
But when a product is in it’s infancy, you don’t friggin’ warrant the work for ten years. Many Solid Surface fabricators by this time did not come through laminate. It’s a different world. The krep you saw at the beginning out there was beyond pathetic. It wasn’t so much an error of comission, but an error of omission. WilsonArt did a piss-poor job of telling fabricators what they needed to watch out for. Not because they didn’t want to, but because they didn’t know.
We had so few deck warranty issues (I leave out the four or six cooktop wall sheet failures as WilsonArt voting Hope over Experience), because we over built the things. We used better glue. We used better pressure methods, and we generally over-killed the top, but that didn’t make it a lot less expensive in the long run, so we just sold against it.
worked like a charm.
Tom
We always had our doubts with the stuff so we stayed away from it. I don’t see that the product was a bad idea. What is the difference between SSV and laminate. The only thing I can tell is the warranty. Get rid of the warranty, and I can see a lof of great uses for SSV.
I have a customer in Barbados that was hung out to dry over the SSV issue. He had about 90 jobs done when the stuff started coming apart. His customers demanded the real thing and all at his cost. This was about 2 years ago and when I saw him this past December he said that he was finally getting some help from WA.
Luckily fo us we never got into the SSV because we got kicked out of the training class. My Dad’s fault but thank God. He used to be a contract negotiator for a large plastics manuf up in New Jersey so he picked them (the instructors), their manuals, and warranty info apart, the second day we were asked to leave, so you can imagine how much Wilsonart we sell.
John
Formstone Light, the original development name for what became SSV was done by avonite. Avonite walked away from the product. Aristech did make all the SSV and all the Gibraltar for WilsonArt up till a few years ago. WilsonArt dropped SSV in the United States, they do still offer it in Europe. Also when Aristech purchased the balance of Avonite for several reasons a lawsuit happened between WilsonArt and Aristech. Bottom line at present, Aristech makes SOME of Gibraltar with Hanex making some also.
Aristech did make SSV postformed tops which they Called Allura sp? They recently pulled the plug (i was told) on this product. SSV has a potential market, unfortunally it was not the market WilsonArt or Aristech went after. I used some in a different application and it worked wonderfully with little to no potential warranty problems. Its a case of the Ivory Tower not understanding where a product fits. and trying to get the square peg in the round hole they think it belongs in. Sadly I have found this true of many manufacturers. The people making policy are so removed from “the real” world and refuse to listen to their own field people or their distributor partners. They believe they “know” where a product belongs and damn it., its going to work… no matter how foolish it is.
Tom, you make my point. Conservative fabricators understand we are taking someones hard earned bucks and don’t cut corners. We are carefull about trying unproven things. Ever hear the old saying “you can’t cheat an honest man”? It applies to all involved, theoretically speaking, but we are the professionals and have the responsibility to protect the homeowner from harm.
Overkill, the only way to do. Kept you in business and I hope it serves me as well.
Wags,
They stopped getting it when they stopped thinking that Fabricators knew their market, and thinking that they should control it down to street level.
Formstone light.
Good one. How long you been in the industry?
Tom
I hear ya, Al, but I just wanted on the record that they were the nicest bunch of guys you could do business with.
Not that it hurt them that they were the first and only responders to my invitations. Although I did one at Dolan and Traynor (sp?) and it went over pretty well, considering I was in the hospital the next day spiking 104 degrees.
Overkill.
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