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I have been in direct contact w/Avonite about this topic since we first started this discussion earlier this month. I received a formal response from Avonite today stating the following:
Avonite does not support this company in reference.
Avonite has not sold material to this company directly.
Avonite has formally asked this company to remove anything and everything on their website referring to the Avonite name, logo, samples etc.
I appreciate everyone’s passion and concern about this topic. The response may be short and to the point, but you can see where your voice has been heard and some action has been taken.
Thanks for listening and acting on this. The Avonite name is still up on the site, all over the place but I guess it will take a few days for them to redo the website. I did notice that you now have to identify yourself by certificate before getting to the sample request page. http://www.solid-surface-kits.com/Step1.aspx
Forgive me if I come across as ungrateful, but how about the jetta deal? Are they still using the avonite name and warrantee program? If so, can we use the same fabrication rules, no seam blocks or underlayment? Perhaps we could offer different fabrication qualities kinda like the AWI does for woodwork.
A level playing field is all that is needed……..We got in two pallets of Avonite today, recieved a contract asking for $14,000 more the other day and awaiting down payment before ordering the material.
Avonite,
Thank you for the reply. You have been on board with the Fabricator Network since the beginning. You have been very good to us. We appreciate that you never once asked us not to talk about your product and the website selling the kits.
Then you come along and post a response for the fabricators to read. This is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Thanks for not backing away from a legitamate concern of many Avonite fabricators.
Thanks for listening, thanks for responding and thanks for participating.
Andy
Al, I feel your frustration about Jetta. I have talked to the regional Avonite Rep. for your area about your concerns. He is out of town this week and has promised to touch base with you sometime in the next week or two. I used to work with him and he is a great guy. Wish I could help you more, but my role here on this forum being a distributor representative is limited. I can forward questions, concerns etc. to the right people who have the ability to listen and potentially make changes. I can however offer opinions and a different perspective from time to time. Most importantly, if you need help, I will be glad to lend a hand. Hope things turn out for you!
Matt
al wrote
Thanks for listening and acting on this. The Avonite name is still up on the site, all over the place but I guess it will take a few days for them to redo the website. I did notice that you now have to identify yourself by certificate before getting to the sample request page. http://www.solid-surface-kits.com/Step1.aspx
Forgive me if I come across as ungrateful, but how about the jetta deal? Are they still using the avonite name and warrantee program? If so, can we use the same fabrication rules, no seam blocks or underlayment? Perhaps we could offer different fabrication qualities kinda like the AWI does for woodwork.
A level playing field is all that is needed……..We got in two pallets of Avonite today, recieved a contract asking for $14,000 more the other day and awaiting down payment before ordering the material.
Avo Rep,
Sounds like you’re a stand-up guy. Good on ya’. If you don’t mind my asking: Did any warranty issues come up in your discussion with the powers that be on this? I would be interested to know if they thought you (they, really) had any exposure to honoring a warranty with this set-up. Would you request the fabricator fulfil it at his cost?
Tom
Tom, my main goal was to help distance the brand from something that could potentially have a very negative affect on consumers, fabricators, distributors, manufacturer, and the ss industry itself. Warranty was a topic of discussion. I’m not going to speak for Avonite so I will speak from my own understanding of the warranty.
In order to receive the 10 year warranty, you have to be certified, fabricate according to the manual guidelines, and install to the manual guidelines. If these guidelines are broken, there is no warranty. Only if the material was defective with porosity, particulate migration, color variation, cupping, bowing etc. would there be consideration for material replacement only (no labor). That’s just my own interpretation. With the way these things were fabricated, I would personally think there would be no warranty from the manufacturer.
Tom M wrote
Avo Rep,
Sounds like you’re a stand-up guy. Good on ya’. If you don’t mind my asking: Did any warranty issues come up in your discussion with the powers that be on this? I would be interested to know if they thought you (they, really) had any exposure to honoring a warranty with this set-up. Would you request the fabricator fulfil it at his cost?
Tom
Thank you for the reply, Avo Rep. I find it interesting, because in my state I believe you might still be liable to cover the cost of the repair (you could certainly back-charge the “fabricator”), because he represented your product, and the consumer had no way of knowing that he would not fabricate within your guidelines. Ct. generally would put the onus on you or the “fabricator” for the problem, rather than the consumer, as they were the most innocent party in this. Besides, the practical issue of the cost of a lawsuit would outweigh the cost of repair/replacement. Your name and ‘send to’ info is on the warranty, so it might fall to you for this.
Tom M
Matt, thanks for the help. I hope I didn’t come across as ungratefull or anything negative, it sure wasn’t my intention. You are are the first Avonite guy besides my old distributor that thought this was a big deal. As others have said, you are a stand up guy.
Am I to assume that the regional rep is Tony Brooks? There was one guy, might have been a national rep that dropped by once with our old distributor. I forget his name, but he worked wonders one day a few years ago and broke a log jam that was about to cost me a ten thousand dollar job, one with half down! I hope it is the same guy.
Andy spoke for all of us in thanking you for your help.
best regards, Al.
Al, you are very welcome and you come across as being passionate about what you do (that’s a good thing). I really try to see things from both sides and I feel a lot of the frustrations you do as well. I have fabricators who call me at 10:00pm during the week and some that call me at 7:00am on a Saturday morning. I think they know I am sincere and want to help them. Hey, I even showed a guy here locally last month how to put a high polish on a Hi Macs top he was doing w/our dry-cut system.
Tony Brooks is the regional guy in your territory. He has owned his own fab. business in the past so he really gets it in my opinion. Just remember, some decisions are made above myself, Tony etc. that we don’t like but have to live with. Trust me, he and I both know we are nothing without our fabricators.
Matt
al wrote
Matt, thanks for the help. I hope I didn’t come across as ungratefull or anything negative, it sure wasn’t my intention. You are are the first Avonite guy besides my old distributor that thought this was a big deal. As others have said, you are a stand up guy.
Am I to assume that the regional rep is Tony Brooks? There was one guy, might have been a national rep that dropped by once with our old distributor. I forget his name, but he worked wonders one day a few years ago and broke a log jam that was about to cost me a ten thousand dollar job, one with half down! I hope it is the same guy.
Andy spoke for all of us in thanking you for your help.
best regards, Al.
Matt, Tony did come by today and answered a lot of questions. I posted my understanding of what had happened and what would happen and what might happen on the original post and will repost it below.
Some light was shed on the relationship between manufacturer and distributor, Tony was very sparing, reluctant in fact to give some details, but that is both understandable and admirable in my veiw of the delicacy of the situation. I know a little bit from both sides and from other sources to understand that maybe they did need to switch territories, just wish it was a little more gentle in it’s execution. I was mistaken on the new distributor being in fabrication, it turns out they have a millwork division that sells jobs and subs them out to fabricators. They are still competition to the bigger shops, but not directly to those our size.
The problems with Jetta’s fabrication guys breaking the rules were discussed and we agreed to get him some hard evidence of that. He said it was in everyones interest to address the issue. In answer to Mather’s question about warrantee claims, I understand that Avonite covers only material issues, color, warping, voids, ect, not fabricator caused problems. My impression is that everyone has understood that the customer won’t know why a top has failed, just that it is an avonite material. Like Mather, I understand state law to put the burden on the warrantee that is given with the registeration card after the top is installed.
Indeed, decisions will be made higher up, but I believe fabricators do have two people at Avonite looking out for the long term.
Below is the post that I posted on the original thread.
Well, an Avonite rep came by my shop today in response to this thread. They were following it pretty closely, just needed time to formulate a response. I am going to try to give a short version of what I learned, not verbatium by any means, just what I understand. I am going to cross post this at the thread that gives their formal response.
They did indeed send a cease and desist letter to the do it yourself site asking for exactly the same action that their formal response said they would. They did give a little time for the website to be changed, good business and fair in my opinion, and the time was reasonable and in no way excessive.
I was assured that Avonite remains committed to it’s fabricator and distributor network, that they want the fabricator rules followed and are looking into solutions to those fabricators who don’t follow the rules.
Avonite’s guy said they were concerned about tops being made with missing seam blocks and no substrate and asked for specific info on any jobs not meeting their standards. I’m going to photograph one such job and sent it to them by the end of the week.
Reading between the lines of this whole experience on this thread and the response to it, one thing becomes clear. There are many at Avonite that are concerned about the reputation of not only their product, but with the reputation of the industry as a whole. It is however a very large company full of individuals, and like any corporation, there are the guys who make it, the guys who sell it, the guys who handle the accounting and the guys who run the whole shebang. They won’t all agree on everything, selling sheets will be important to some, long term results to others, the bottom line important to others. As fabricators, we need to support the guys looking at the long term. Their man said they were considering ways to differincate the fabricators that did a good job from the fabricators that cut corners and cost them warrantee claims. I suggested holding fabricators responsible for any defect caused by the fabricators, giving the bad apples a chance to fix their mistakes and yanking certifications of those who won’t learn and do better.
As a whole, I think they have a handle on this. I’ll check that do it yourself site in a month or so to see if the changes have been done.
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