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I honestly want to know when giving a guy a second chance has paid off? I must admit it has worked out to my advantage one time, but the other 20 times I have been burned. Convince me.
Andy, I assume you are talking about an employee. Thing about people is that they are what they are. In the past, I would give second chances, even third, always at a cost to the offending party, maybe a tiny pay cut, .25 cents per hour or some token amount, maybe a couple days off, anything to make em pay a little for misdeeds.
The most important thing is although people can reform, it is a process not an overnight occurance. An evolution is more the order than a dramatic change. Think of the years most of us have spent with friends or family and how many of them have changed? Now, I assume you are dealing with a person who can probally get a job tomorrow if he is fired from this one. Social network in place to keep him from suffering greatly, or enabling friends or family to prop them up…..
I had a young man start a week or two ago, job hopper, went through all the larger shops in town, same sad story of either no advacement or getting fired for family problems interferring with showing up for work. I gave the $5.00 talk, about having to miss work for a few hours in an emergency but then deciding if they could help their family more by having a job, or by getting fired for multiple unexcused missed work days. We will excuse workers missing work for any reason, as long as it is reasonable, given in advance or the worker will be quick and get back to work. Heck, if a guy wants to go fishing, let him go do what he wants to do with a few days notice and an agreement to make up the time if the scedule is tight. I mentioned the fact that the job hopper was pretty much out of shops to work at and he needed to settle down an make a go of it.
So, second week on the job, he needs to take off on a day that he KNEW we were strectched tight, back to back installs, humping the day before to get them ready so our homeowners didn’t miss flooring install dates.
Reason? Mother in law needs a ride home from the hospital, he had the only car, his wife was upset over something, and some kinfolk were fussing about something. Now a reasonable person might think that since it was friday morning, a cab could be sent for the mother in law, or wifey could have taken the guy to work and picked up the mother in law. Surely the other problems could wait six hours for quiting time? No, the guy calls me while I’m on an install telling me is having to take off. I suggest taking an hour and a half and working to make up the time on saturday morining. This wouldn’t do, so I told him to do what was most important to him.
Told my wife to write out his finial check on saturday. No use training a guy like that, cut your losses and find someone else.
Andy, you gave them a chance when you hired them. Unless this is an isolated incident, or an old hand who has earned the right to screw up once or twice, give them the boot. There are some people that can’t stand to suceed. Wouldn’t you be better of to let him go to work for your competitor?
Andy,
We have had a hard time with a scheduling position. We just could not find someone capable of doing the job and/or showing up for work. My tolerance became very short, one of the last ones was constantly doing instant messaging and even though we told her we let someone go for doing that it did not seem to matter. But the kicker was when she was caught playing solitaire, her excuse was that she was waiting for the printer to finish printing some stuff she needed. Although we felt she would be able to do the job we let her go. We now have a person that really wants to work and keep her job and she is doing really well.
Not long ago I had hired an entry level guy about 19 years old. He was doing really well, would do whatever he was told, except come to work on time, or on Saturday when he was told to. I had to get tough with him; I told him if he failed to show up on a Saturday when he was told to or if he was late again not to bother coming to work. That lasted for two days before he was a couple of minutes late, so I let him go. It was hard to do because he was a good worker and we really needed him but I had no choice. Everybody in the shop knew what was going on and I had to follow through.
I usually cut the guys a lot of slack once they have proven themselves, but it is a two way street. If I feel that they are taking advantage I put a stop to it. I have a good bunch of guys at the moment and if someone needs time off I rarely would say no, if they need to take off early I let them, but when I need them to put in a twelve hour day or work a Saturday they are right there to do it. My lead installer is on salary and yet he always wants to install jobs on Saturday when we get backed up even though he won’t get paid for it, but in the 6+ years he has worked for me I have never said no to him taking time off when he wants.
I think you know what you should do in your present situation, follow your instincts. One of the things that make it easier for me when I need to discipline or terminate a guy is knowing that I will get much more respect from my other employees doing what I know is the right thing, rather that giving a guy too many chances and then looking like a fool in the end. Good luck Andy, I know you will do the right thing.
Shane
Andy,
The way I look at it is short and sweet. One bad apple in the bunch……… pretty soon you could have a bad bunch.
John
Giving chances to new guys is setting yourself up. New employees know they must be on their best behavior and if that is their best…….get rid of them now and save yourself the headache later.
I am all for giving tried and true employees chances. Everyone needs a break now and then. Like Shane, we give time off and bend over backwards for our employees, in return we expect the same when crunch time comes. If they don’t give it, well, maybe that day off isn’t so important after all. (It certainly loses its importance with me…..)
Good advice. I just hate to fire people cause I want things to work out for the best. But I can’t afford to lose the respect of the other guys.
I don’t think most bosses like to fire people. Unfortunately you have to do what is in the best interest of your company and your other employees. Be kind about it and if they are receptive recommend to them some things they can do to improve their performance at their next job. No hard feelings, but it just isn’t working out. (to keep yourself out of legal trouble remember you can fire someone for no reason, but you can’t fire them for the wrong reason; so watch what you say….) Also it helps to have a witness there just in case. (Maybe their immediate supervisor or something alongs those lines.) Good Luck! 🙂
I disagree with the witness thing, it should be more private unless you have a HR rep with your company. We are required to give the warnings in writing, make them sign those, if it gets to termination that is also done on paper. This is to ensure that the company is not in any trouble. I believe you can get in trouble doing this kind of thing with an audience. Honesty and a paper trail will never fail.
John
I agree totally with the witness at a firing, but not at a reprimand or “come to the light” meeting. In a past life when I was responsible for a fairly sizeable staff in COuntry CLub Management we NEVER fired anyone without a witness. The last thing you want is a he said/She said at an unemployment hearing.
“I” never fired anyone, however I had several people who fired themselves by failing to perform thier expected duties in the expected fashion multiple times. I have found that most times the rest of the crew actually wishes that you had let the dead weight go sooner, and are pleased when an inferior performer is let go.
Chris
Even on paper a he said / she said situation could develop and in California unemployment judges are ridiculously biased in favor of employees. Although you definitely want to have a paper trail too.
We had an employee leave on a trip, and then never come back to work. He never called to say he was back in town, and he never returned our calls. He actually had filed for unemployment benefits while he was still working (I of course had documentation of that). Anyway, it is a long story, but ultimately in the hearing the judge found in his favor and our unemployment rates went up. A friend of ours who owns a very large business said he has been to 50 or more hearings and NEVER once won. Also they allow you to bring a witness to those kinds of hearings so I think it is smart to have one. I am sure laws differ in different states so make sure you are following the laws in your own state.
I have been to about 6-8 hearings and the only one I lost was when I took someone with me. The problem was I had taken my supervisor and he lost his cool and ultimately lost our case. I have had success at the hearings, but I really hate going to them.
Shane
Just trying to learn about these things before I try and put on an employee and guess I must be a little slow. Why do you have to go to these hearings for unemployment. I thought if a person was terminated for not fullfilling his job he could not collect unemployment, but if you just laid him off do to lack of work you had to pay it. Help I’m confussed, so if I fire myself can I get unemployment?
No on the serious side I guess I really do not understand the unemployment side. What are the cases where if they are fired or let go that you need to worry about having to pay unemployment? I guess i understand giving guys a chance if their car doesn’t start every now and then, but when it is a everyday problem and you let them go you mean we still have to worry about unemployment rate hike becouse of this?
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