[Gene McDonald]

[Gene McDonald]

Posted By Gene McDonald on 08 Jul 2009 04:24 AM
Joe, joe, joe

Now I am getting a little dissappointed in you seriously..never to the point of pissed off..but dude…You answer Norms question, strike what he mentions..but my questions and points??????

The attchement of your first post seems to be not even read by you…so I will paste it….You did cross the line by telling me to cash the check quickly as if I rip poeple off…that was disrespectful..as If I tell customers something different..

Now I sent you the specification page from paperstone website and showed you the list on the lower right corner where it said exterior, outside kitchen, etc.

…I actually was waiting to hear you say…wow sorry gene…I didnt notice that page which is actually a SPECIFICATION page…not a key benefit page

Joe the warranty section is preety much like other…alot of SS dont warraty Commercial unless you a cool dude…the MFG’s show what can be doen with the product…but the installation of wall clad and other use Corian might not warrant

because if the walls fall of because someone used caulk than silicone…Ppaerstone dont want to hear it…My chizeled edge on Avonite cant get warrantied…the whole edge is chipped!!!!

Then ya go and disrespect me again without merit..by replying to Norm..with you statement..some new fabricator might seee Genes work and not no the differences between Paperstone fab techniques….If a new fabricator would actually read your link…they will see that you actually dont post what you read,

Now here is what you posted off the same Paperstone site…but is a benefit page….and here the thing.Joe…WHEN was the last time you were wrong?

I personally know you are wrong alot…I am asking when you actually think you were wrong and at least admitted it….All you hafta say is I was wrong

The reason Norm mentioned Jabs at me is because I think there are people who dont want to show off their accomplishements, because they think you are gonna throw darts at them…not that they have done wrong, but they dont want to argue publicly…i also think what you does some good…I always say the artists who dont make it are the ones who listen to critics…but does it out weigh the bad?

this website has its own sense of welcoming…we dont lie…we encourage

But I realize I am not debating with you which i would have loved…You just arent referencing what I send back …when I backed you into the corner with the truth…you said you were calling the paperstone police on me…when the guy is gonna tell you..that if you have experience with paperstone…you should learn about the stuff….now here is what You posted..and this is also for the newcomers which Joe now cares about

PaperStone Benefits and Key Points

• PaperStone is the ‘greenest’ architectural surface on the market today.
• Common applications include interior countertops, wall cladding, conference tables, signs, cutting boards, window sills, and toilet partitions.
• PaperStone is also an excellent choice for rainscreens

 

• Most PaperStone products are made from post-consumer waste, recycled paper and proprietary, petroleum-free, phenolic resins. Organic pigments assure superior UV resistance, color stability and even color distribution through the entire panel
• What did they just say Superior UV???????? Why would they need that?

 

• There are two series of recycled paper-based PaperStone products: 1) ‘Original’, which is made from 100% post-consumer recycled cardboard and 2) ‘Certified’,is made from 100% post-consumer standard office paper. It has been certified through the Smartwood program of the Rainforest Alliance to meet FSC standards. Paperstone made from virgin fiber is also available.
• Depending upon the project, the use of PaperStone may contribute to several LEED credits.

How best used:

• We recommend PaperStone for a wide variety of interior horizontal applications such as counters for kitchens, window sills and door thresholds. We also recommend these products for structural applications, landscape components, furniture, table tops and other manufactured products.
• JOE>>>WHAT  DID THEY JUST MENTION LANDSCAPE COMPONENTS???????
• PaperStone Certified and Original both also work well in vertical applications such as toilet partitions, interior and exterior paneling, exterior cabinet work, and chair rail.
• oh not again..EXTERIOR Paneling AND EXTERIOR cabinet work?
• Standard panel sizes are 60″ x 144″ in standard thicknesses of 3/4″, 1″ and 1-1/4″. Other panel thicknesses and sizes can be special ordered. Contact your distributor for details. What is PaperStone made of and why is knowing this important?
• PaperStone is a composite made from recycled paper and proprietary, petroleum-free phenolic resins made from raw materials like cashew nut shell liquid.
• Phenolic resin and paper composites have long been known to have superior tensile, compression, impact and flexural strengths. They are very abrasion resistant. They absorb very little water. They are the products of choice in applications requiring high fire resistance (PaperStone has a Class A fire rating). They are routinely specified for cutting boards and for very demanding, high-use, exterior applications like skateboard ramps.
• OH man JOE this paper you asked me to check out is killing me…Skateboard ramps..high use, exterior applications?????
• PaperStone has a high modulus of elasticity.
• PaperStone is resistant to staining in kitchen applications.
• PaperStone can easily be worked with CNC-routers and lasers to produce signs and very intricately detailed architectural components. Layering different colored resin saturated sheets in the panel production process further expands the range of design options possible.
• PaperStone has been thoroughly tested and certified as non-detectable for formaldehyde by the most demanding test available, the so-called desiccant method test.
• Like all phenolic composites, PaperStone is subject to some color shifting with UV light exposure but, to the maximum extent possible, the coloring systems have been selected for color stability.
• ahHHH forget it….
• PaperStone is warm to the touch.

Mechanical properties

• 45,000 psi compressive strength
• An unloaded, 1″ thick panel of PaperStone will cantilever 18″ with less than 1/16th inch deflection.
• Mechanical attachments stay secure in tapped screw holes
• Router and laser detail limited only by workman’s imagination
• Structurally rigid and sound in vertical and horizontal applications

Fabrication and Finish

• Millwork and cabinetmaker craftsmen can fabricate using traditional woodworking tools (e.g. triple-chip carbide blades).
• The laminated nature of the product creates an edge that resembles a solid surface product with a faint wood grain appearance.
• Unlimited edge detail with traditional tooling
• Seams carefully made with CA5 or two-part epoxy are tight and difficult to see.
• Shims provide height adjustment prior to final installation
• The panels should be finished with PaperStone finish or a similar product.
• Sanding using a Scotch-Brite™ maroon or green pad will provide a smooth finish that will also help preserve the surface integrity.
• PaperStone Original and Certified are made from recycled paper. There is a certain amount of surface appearance variability, similar to natural variability in stone.
• As with all natural and recycled products, PaperStone has inherent characteristics that may vary slightly from panel to panel. Just as a skilled woodworker looks at the color and grain of wood before matching up panels, it is important to do the same with PaperStone.
• UV stability is good in the dark colors. Some color shift will occur with the lighter colors. The PaperStone finish enhances the panel’s UV protection.

Cost considerations

• PaperStone panel prices are roughly the same as quality granite and brand name solid surface or quartz material products.
• As a result of the ease of workmanship and finish of PaperStone, the installed prices are often lower.

NOW JOE…You see the reason Norm mentions jabs at me is because you have started this with the Hickory edge.toilet seat,and i see alot of others.. I pointed out the ice cream tops were on the North side of the building..The placement of the building was stronlgy researched for Sustainable Site location for points…so my freind…you are not argueing with me, you are argueing with your self…if you would have read what you posted you wouldn’t have egg all your face…

The only jab you didnt take at my projects was the Avonite glowing edge molten lava thing other than chizeling it different…you asked me to do a press release about how this would help the industry and really showed me a cool side of Joe….but Joe…chizeling an edge is probaly gonna be difficult to do a warranty claim..not manual says finish the edge with a chizel and a mallet

thats enough now..I am sure you are calling the Avonite police on me too

[Un-Authorized]

Posted By Gene McDonald on 07 Jul 2009 09:36 AM

Joe…thanx for writing friendly exchange…I was concerned you might not talk to me know more and critique my work..

 

Did you look at the link of the specification page off paperstones website?

didnt and shouldn’t you ask him why it says exterior kitchens…did you see paperstone pauls post on ” Other uses for paperstone” where he used it as a racecar head gasket?

it doesnt matter what this guy tells you…You are wrong…the website says exterior uses..

and here is the ultimate slam…that is the North side of the building…for Sustainable site placement..which means the Sun never evens sees those tops

man is there I post somewhere where you say “HMMMM I dont know enough or have experience with this material…maybe Gene is trailblazing through the fab manual…much like alot of people did with Corians FIRST manual

did you know In Martin  Funcks talk in Mass last year he showed us how he wrapped an exterior building in Solid Surface…should we call the warranty police on him…keep it up my brother I dont mind argueing with you…I just wish you would waste this energy on actually working with paperstone adn lets see what you are doing…I still love ya Joe…these typing quote cant show the sincerity and kindness I have But If this gets nasty and you start pouting and get upset let me know

Can ya answer me though why does it matter if the website I attched shows you its uses?

Gene:

Sorry for answering Norm’s post before yours, I worked late last night.

I did click on your provided link and it took me to a “Properties and Applications” page, not “Technical Specifications”.

I should ask (him) why it says exterior kitchens. Especially in light of having read “horizontal interior applications”.

It does matter what this guy tells us. The website does say exterior uses. It also says “horizontal interior applications”. It also excludes warranty coverage from exterior uses. So yeah, the explanation of a live human Paperstone representative matters at least as much as the conflicting statements on their website.

Gene, I don’t need to have worked with Paperstone to read and comprehend what their website says. The idea that one has to have experience with a product to be able to understand a manufacturer’s claims and specifications is illogical. I don’t have any children, but I’ll know if yours is an obnoxious brat that has been raised without enough dicipline. (Figuratively speaking of course.)

We are not getting nasty, I am not upset or pouting.

Joe

[Un-Authorized]

Gene:

I meant no disrespect for my check cashing remark, wish I could untype it and hope you accept my apologies.

I watched Avonite representatives teach the chiseled edge technique inside a booth, saftey glasses and all, at a Surface Fabrication Expo many years ago. I doubt they could hammer you with a warranty void, but they may want it both ways too.

To answer your question, the last time I was substantially wrong was when I ordered  1 1/2 sheets of Pinnacle solid surface when I should have ordered 2 last week. I still ran short but I may have gotten out of it. I’ll post pictures when Dani emails them to me. In fact, I’ve made posts about my mistakes previously, hoping to save others the experience. Since you know personally when I’m wrong “a lot” I would like you to be more specific, so I can learn too.

I am disappointed in your characterizing my attempts for information and clairification as “calling the Paperstone police”. I would think you would welcome their vindication.

Joe

[Wags]

Gene.. Has the “candy” in the picture changed since you did the inlay? I would wonder what the longer term effect would be on it. I love the project and it shows real creativity on both you and the designer of the project. Did you have problems keeping the “candy” where you wanted it? Did it want to float in the inlay? Did you vibrate it to remove the air, if so, did the “candy” want to float also?

Gene your craftsmanship never ceases to amaze me… great job!

[Wags]

Joe
Remember that Mfg have to publish “standards” for the benefit of all fabricators. We have seen Jon do things with Solid Surface that most shops would not even think about doing. If paperstone pushed the use of their product in areas that take more care to be sucessful, they would have to take in account good fabricators and marginal fabricators. I dare say Gene can do things that most fabricators would not be sucessful at, and, with the mfg blessings.

[Gene McDonald]

Wags, thanx for compliments…I did the pour twice..the first pour was to hold down the floating products like coffee beans, etc..But i screwed up the first batch…It was being sold as an experiment prototype…but I first did strawberries and pineapples and they rotted quickly  they still looked cool but to help customers buy toppings for their ice cream

So i had to redo them..thats when the gummy worms and jelly beans came in..I useta spray with acrylic to hold them down to keep from floating but the polyester resin i use alligators and foggies up the acrylic spray..so its time cosuming on floating inlay materials…then on my second pour I do like normal with the dam and everything

[Mike Gladstone]

Gene,
Awesome work as usual!

For what it’s worth Gene told me about this project when he was getting started on it, when he told me the food he was putting in it, I asked him how he was going to warranty it from changing. He said that his customer was explained the risks of possible change and was willing to ACCEPT those risks. What happens as time goes by will tell how it holds up. But, if you know Gene, he’s got a great reputation and is growing because of it. There is no doubt in my mind that he will work with this customer if a problem arises.

Joe,
You stated that you have never worked with the product before, so if that is the case then why even comment on it. I’m sure that most, if not all fabricators that visit this site know and actually use the fabrication manuals for the products they fabricate.

[Un-Authorized]

Posted By Mike Gladstone on 08 Jul 2009 11:04 AM

Joe,
You stated that you have never worked with the product before, so if that is the case then why even comment on it?

Mike:

As you may or may not know, I took a logic class last winter semester. (I earned a B+!) During and after the class I was astounded by the amount of perfectly rational sounding arguments I heard that were, in fact, illogical. Unfortunately, your sentence quoted above fits the bill by committing a fallacy of relevance.

This is from page 120 of my textbook, A Concise Introduction To Logic, by Patrick J. Hurley, 2008: “The ad hominem circumstantial begins the same way as the ad hominem abusive, but instead of heaping verbal abuse on his opponent, the respondent attempts to discredit the opponent’s argument by alluding to certain circumstances that affect the opponent. By doing so, the respondent hopes to show the opponent is predisposed to argue the way he or she does and therefore should not be taken seriously.”

You have ignored the substance of my argument, the Paperstone website calling for horizontal interior applications, and are attempting to discredit it by calling attention to the fact that I’ve never fabricated Paperstone. The fact that I’ve never fabricated Paperstone is completely irrelevant as to whether or not my premises support a conclusion.

Let me help you out here. Gene’s argument that the same website advocates for exterior applications of Paperstone was an excellent counterpoint because it was relevant to my contention. Perhaps you could find a trade association of phenolic manufacturers who advocate for exterior uses as well. That would be relevant also, but saying my argument is bad because I haven’t fabricated Paperstone is the logical equivalent of saying “Joe, your house has a green roof, so you can’t possibly know what you’re talking about.”

Joe

P.S.:

I agree with every other sentence in your previous post.

[Un-Authorized]

All:

I just got off the phone with Joan Julius of Paperstone who informed me that Mark Knudtson has been out of town, which probably explains his lack of a prompt response.

Joan is delightful on the phone and provided a wealth of information. I’ll try to reconstruct our conversation from my note scribblings. Paperstone started out as skateboard ramp material. Coincidentally, Joan had just gotten an exterior-appropriateness question from a Paperstone dealer. Their “Rainscreen” siding product has an ultraviolet light coating which keeps it from fading. Apparently fading is the only exterior problem with using Paperstone outside, there is no structural change. The darker the color, the more stable the color. A furniture manufacturer decided that the potential customer fading complaints outweigh the benefits of using Paperstone at this time. The word “exterior” was removed from the website page where “interior horizontal” usage is found, and exterior uses were removed from warranty protection due to the fading issue.
Paperstone is looking for a manually-applied UV protectant as a potential solution.

Joan says not to expose Paperstone to bleach (not estone either, personal experience) and she has a small blond ring on a top of hers from a hydrogen peroxide exposure.

It sounds like using Paperstone outside is a fairly safe bet structurally, so I doubt Gene’s beautiful inlays will be failing anytime soon. However, customers can be fickle, even if you have them sign in blood that they were made aware of the fading issue.

For context, resinated granite will fade from UV exposure and 90% or so of fabricated granite is resinated. Engineered stone is not recommended for exterior storage, let alone useage. If fade-proofing is the top priority for your exterior customers, it looks like stainless, tile or unresinated stone is for them.

Joan is sending me some samples and I can’t wait to try them out.

Joe

[Gene McDonald]

Cool beans Joe…right off the bat throw the samples in water…the Uv fading problem if there is any usually catches up to the darkening Patina stage and balances out to the same color anyway…but where I used it was placed to get some sunlight…a little bit of the sunset will lay on the one counter for twenty minutes..but nothing intense

My problems with the counters are that the have 500 screaming kids droppping Ice cream all over the tops, brownies…all kinds of stuff…looked gross

[Andy Graves]

I don’t know how I missed this post, but that is incredible. How you gonna keep them from melting?

I still am not sure how you get these jobs, but in this economy, you should put on a sales seminar.

Again, great work.

[Gene McDonald]

Andy..why thanx for the compliments..i screwed up the first time by using strawberries…they turned white ..but the M&Ms, jelly beans are now preserved forever…I got pictures of water laying on it..pretty cool…

Yeah the people at paperstone finally seen it and go thru alot of ..they were appreciated how i won the Surface expo with my Kitchen counter and the toilet seat. yeah I know how to sell the wackiest stuff around and I cant believe people actually pay me for it.. I guess that type of stuff keeps me away from the home depot competition…the new BIG bOX competition on the block is IKEA

[Mary Carpenter]

Wow! I’m with Jon, Vote 1 for Gene for fabricator of the year, or inlay king, how much more can you enlighten us to the applications of solid surface of inlays. Being very much a lolliholic (candyholic) this really appeals to me and kids everywhere.

I imagine it was tedious keeping the lollies in place, buy hey, it paid off and looks absolutely brilliant. Just keeps cementing in the point that inlays have endless applications for any business to have a product specific custom made counter top that will reflect their product to their clients. Keeping us guessing, what next?

[Tom M]

Greenie,
Do you need to re oil the tops? Richlite recommends 50% diluted “Good Stuff” (butcher block sealant), but I’m not sure what Paperstone says.

I would imagine the bigger threat to be the surface sealant rather than the inlays.

[Author]

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