-
Posts
-
We recently purchased the LT 55. We were looking for another templating system. On 6/9/2010, they delivered the new system. Upon delivery, they went out on one template with us. We were told to watch the video and our guys should be able to operate the system correctly. After several phone conversations and practice templates, we seemed to be having some problems. Now I know that this templating system is used by a lot of other shops and works perfectly for them, so we have been told. It just doesn’t fit in our shop. Last month we said it just doesn’t quite work and we would like our money back. They thought something was wrong, so they sent us a new black box. We have since then changed out black boxes and it seems to have made things a bit better. We were told to give it a little more time and keep calling to see if we can work it out. We have also received new pins. It was supposed to make it more accurate.
This morning I spoke with everyone in our drafting department. We have done 25 templates , but we also template with another templating system to check this one. We still do not feel comfortable with the system. Today, we again requested that we would like to return this system. I fully believe this system will work for other people, it just does not work for us. The last conversation we had today with the laser template people is they would like to send some professional LT 55 templaters out to show us that it is perfect. I declined and told them I can no longer invest in this system. We have already invested countless hours and it just doesn’t fit with our company.
We were told that if we don’t hear from them tomorrow then we can pretty much kiss our money goodbye. That is $13,000. I feel if they are so confident that it will work, we should be able to return it. We can get into alot of he said she said, but the bottom line is the system does not work for us. We would like to return it. I knew I should have put it on my Visa. At least I would be able to dispute it.
Mory
Is it just not accurate enough. I think the tolerances are about a 1/16″ which is pretty close for countertops. Are you getting that accurate.
Have you been able to template anything with the LT55 that meet matches the other system you are using?
Mory, this is a tough one.
We use the Proliner templating system with mixed results. The model that our Draughtsmen use to digitise our hard templates gives excellent results but we have struggled on site to use our other model to achieve the level of accuracy that we achieve with our old-fashioned templates.
I am aware of an independent templater who uses the same machine daily to earn his bread and butter and he obviously has no problems with it and also the local agent is constantly reassuring me that it works perfectly on site. He has also gone out on site with our templater to prove his point.
Digital templating is definitely the way to go and I sometimes have to wonder how much of the transition problems we face are due to the machinery and how much, no matter how inadvertantly, is due to resistance to change on the part of the operator and everyone in the shop. Hard templates offer reassurance when you are fabricating. They are solid and once laid on the workpiece you can see where any problems may lie. But they are wasteful and expensive.
In relation to the issue about getting your money back that should act as a heads up for the rest of us to try before we buy. With something portable like the LT55 it should be possible for the seller to let us have a demonstration model for a week or two before committing to the purchase.
On a wider note, given that digital is the future is anyone aware of any pending developments to improve on what is currently on the market? Is anyone using a foolproof system at present and if so what is it?
A few further thoughts having reread your post.
Why doesn’t the supplier offer to spend a day at your operation to see where the issues lie? They should be able to tell you from observation whether there is a machinery problem or an operator problem.
Your comment that the machine may work for others is a tacit admission that possibly part of the problem is unfamiliarity with the system and process. these issues can be covered by direct training from the supplier and their doing that for you FOC would be a better PR move than blanking you on a refund.
On this laser system, we have worked with it for over a month, and on many occasions used both of our templating systems so that we could compare one template to the other. Granted sometimes you can do the same template of 1 kitchen twice and come out slightly different both times, but with this system it was not a slight difference. In some areas of this kitchen not only were the measurements off by 3/16″ or more, but some of the angles were off as well.
I work in the drafting department, after seeing such a difference I went out with our main templator to see the system at work first hand and learn more about it. Every top we templated was off anywhere from 1/16″–not a big deal–to 3/16″, and to us that is a big deal. This not only can cause us to refabricate pieces, but it costs extra time and money when our templator has to retemplate things 2, 3 or 4 times. We pride ourselves on producing quality countertops that we are proud to put in our customers homes as well as our families and our own. To other shops that may be ok, but to me, when we can be very accurate within 1/16″, anything less is unacceptable.Lauren,
What’s the other templating system that you’re comparing it to?
I’ve use multiple digital templating systems and have NOT had accuracy issues with any of them – only an occasional human/user error.
For a new LT55XL user, my biggest suggestion would be to try and limit the amount of up/down travel on the tripod. Tightening (overtightening) the set screw can be a culprit of the errors you describe. On new cabinet installations it’s easy: 1) shoot the cabinets, 2) raise the laser, 3)shoot the walls. On templates with existing tops in place, it can be a little trickier with existing tile, backsplashes, and other obstacles.
Another comment: The onboard CAD program with the LT55XL is the most robust of any that I’ve used (unless your other system is connected to a laptop with a full-blown CAD program). Your field templater should be able to measure and confirm/correct any inconsistencies before leaving the jobsite. The only time I get wierd readings are very shallow angles and on black surfaces.
See if LP will extend your “trial period” and allow enough time for you to work out these problems. Make some more posts explaining these situations, and others can try and help you out.
Our templator always uses a tape measure to check measurements on the laser program. He is also very careful not to move the laser up and down to much and to keep it steady as he goes.
Our other templating system is Phototop. Even when he uses this system he still manually draws out the kitchen on paper and writes down measurements. We all try to be as thorough as possible.I’ve used E-Template (same technology as PhotoTop). IMO, the photo systems can be a little more accurate, and are also useful for 3-D situations, but the computing time is a killer when used in a high production shop. If you’re only doing 1-2 templates a day, then you might not notice the time savings advantages of the LT55XL. For any more volume of templates, you should gain a lot of productivity with the LT55XL.
On that note, I would suggest that using the laser should involve a “shift” in the responsibilities among your employees. The templating person at the jobsite should assume MORE responsibility in capturing and preparing the information needed for your shop. That person should not just measure cabinets – they should add overhangs, radii, backsplash pieces (steps probably being done by your CAD guys now). We use both a Proliner and a Laser for field templating, and both of these systems allow for a nearly ready-to-cut DXF file to be completed prior to sending that info back to the shop. Your field templater should also be able to check/verify dimensions vs. tape measure and CORRECT any inconsistencies before leaving the jobsite. Similarly, your field guy may need to re-size a piece depending on the constraints of the jobsite (3-wall pieces, etc.)
Our field templaters average about 4 kitchens in an 8-hour day (including travel time). Our programmers only add sink cutouts, seams, and generate the CNC programs for our machines.
Feel free to call or e-mail me if I can help!
If it’s a new LT then your problem is most likely from the new laser that they are using in them now. On the older model they used a vertical laser. The new models have a horizontal laser. That makes it harder to get the laser to fully hit the pins. You need to make sure that the laser is hitting the pins accurately. If it’s projecting around the edges of the pins and hitting the wall behind you’re going to get inaccurate readings or no readings at all. Maybe if you’re having problems with that you could try to come up with a wider target for the laser to hit?
At a job site (new construction) with a L shaped kitchen we used the LT55 laser 6 different times. Every time we redid the template it was off 1/8″ to as much as 2-9/16″ through out. We also tried setting it up in different locations and the same thing happened. After calling and emails to the company, they sent us a new black box. After the new black box, things started to get better but still wasnt as accurate as claimed. Again with the calls the company said we have the wrong pin targets with the horizontal laser we had. After the new targets arrived, it started to work correctly with in a 1/16″. After templating a few more jobs it seams like everything is always a 1/16″ off one way or the other and we are always correcting. There is even a few that are 3/16″ off. I have everything nice and snug and level.
Another thing is a vanity is shorter then the tripod will go, not a great big deal but kind of hassel trying to find stuff for a target.
You can only say its close enough so many times.This afternoon I got a call from Jim concerning the LT 55. They are going to send two guys down from Chicago and spend a couple days with us and help us figure out what the problem is. They have 100% confidence in their product and are willing to get to the bottom of this problem. They have also said with no questions asked, after spending a couple days with us, if we still desire to have a full refund, they will write us a check before they leave. I will keep you posted on the results, but as I told them I was looking for another system to work with the one we have. We have 5 Photo-Top kits and that will remain our number one templating. I hope this one will work so we can keep it as a secondary system.
Thanks,
Mory
Mory, as you know, you are being incredibly judicous in your relaying of this experience.
Our LT works for us, but I check everything with a tape measure and sometimes get a wild hair that needs to be fixed.
I have heard nothing but really really good stuff about the owners at LP and would have been pretty dissapointed if they didn’t refund the $ despite any contracts, etc………
Follow-up on the LT 55. They did come in from Chicago and went out with our templaters. With all the tricks they showed us and the techniques that are not in the video, the laser worked great. However, when they left we told them that we would try it for a few more weeks and we would let them know if we decided to keep it. It was a satisfaction guaranteed purchase. Be sure to read all of the print. The video that comes with the system, I feel is very incomplete and you cannot start using the system correctly from the training video. I feel they need to personally train you on this system. There are lots of little tricks. Today, I told them that we would go ahead and return the system and that I would expect a refund. Well guess what! There is no refund! I was told to look at the back of the purchase agreement. The system belongs to us. That is not what they told us when they sent the guys here. THey said that they would have a check with them, but we not once ever discussed getting our money back when they were here. I told them that we would keep using the system and make sure that is what I really wanted to do. They agreed. So buyer beware. They system does work. I don’t have anything negative about the system, but never expect your money back.
Mory
One more thing. I hope this company stands behind their warranty if anything should go wrong with it.
Mory Ludwick
Premier Countertops
8720 L street
Omaha, Ne. 68127
402-991-7258
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.