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So the granite folks like to bash Solid Surface. They have been doing this for years now. I love it. It shows there a little scared. Where about to enter a new frontier with Solid Surface. Instead of playing there game. Lets do are thing. Talk up the design ideas. How about something a simple as this .Solid surface is reparable. Not other surface is. Let’s keep pushing the positive stuff.
Good point Jon. Just did that with a cleint that was thinking granite just yesterday. Told her I loved solid surface because of all the design possibilities and repairiblity etc and stated granite is a rock so not much can do with it? This was on the phone then about 2 hours later in to the showrrom they come and said well here are some granite samples if you our still considering them and she said do not bother what can we do in solid surface. Gotta like it we go to her house next week to confirn colors and also what we can do in the bathroom.
Tell all the design possibilities with SS and most forget granite.
Reuben
Well, you should care about granite Jon as apparently the SS side and their organizations that supposedly are talking up their product, are not doing a very good job of it. The majority of our SS customer base are also doing granite. There’s a reason for that. Build it and they will buy so to speak.Why lose the sale? The funny thing is that the vast majority of granite shops HAVE NOT got in to doing SS. Hmmmm
I’ll be blount: If I had not started offering tooling for the granite side 5 years ago, and had relied on just the cabinet & SS industries, I’d be out of business as I type this!
WIth all due respect, Jon, Dave is right. This sorry state of our declining market share is a direct result of ISSFA not doing it’s job. The Consumer Report debacle was only the icing on the cake. Unlike the stone sites like findstone.com, stoneadvice.com and the MIA site, solid surface has had NO organized effort to answer bad PR, or even insure that questions from consumers about countertop materials get a balanced answer.
Dave is also 100% correct that as fabricators who do all types of counter tops, we have far more credibility than purveyors of a single material.
We do need your type of approach as well, informing the public and design professional on the positive aspects of solid surface. However, if we don’t answer the attacks on our product, the public will assume them to be true.
Jon, if ISSFA won’t do the job, why object to a few of us doing it?
Here is a good example of the trash feed to consumers by stone sites. Look at the bottom of the page where it talks about granite being toxic to bacteria.
http://www.montgranite.com/index.php?targetScript=viewObject.mg.php&targetObjectId=75
We have to start answering these claims.
Just finished a three day Home Show a few hours ago. Showed only solid surface. We were the only dedicated solid surface exhibitor. A few cabinet shops with SS, Quartz and Granite samples. Three dedicated granite Booths.
We slamed them.
Barb and I talked non stop for three solid days, 11 hours per day. Dozens of people came to the booth thinking on ordering granite tops. Almost all signed up with us for SS. We have close to 70 people on our list to visit for a final quote over the next few weeks. Will most likely sign up 20 plus customers over the next week or two.
We turned off most with our discussions about repairability, staining and the requirement for under or overmount sinks. They love the integrated sinks with SS.
We had a great show and came home exilerated. We also had talks with three more Kitchen shops about becoming dealers for us.
Then I come home, get on the FabNet and find out Barb won the V-groover. What a weekend.
Now all I have to do is figure out how to get all the work done. The CNC and V-groover will certainly help.
Paul
Here is a guy that just gave up and decided bad bacteria are actually good for us.
Unbelievable yet believable Al. The 1st link you posted has sponsors like NKBA and once again, the Marble Institute. Yet again it’s the net where you can post any mung you want without regard to facts. This is BS that needs to be challenged and challenged vigouresly. And I don’t see where ISSFA does a thing about it but they are really good at seminar charging!
This sorry state of our declining market share is a direct result of ISSFA not doing it’s job.
With respect, al, griping about ISSFA is not going to change anything. Most of the folks here that want to bash them are never going to see anything in ISSFA but failure and irresponsibility. Okay. That’s the way you all see it. I can respect that.
It wasn’t ISSFA that dropped the price of stone to affordable levels. It wasn’t ISSFA that used the lesser price of solid surface as a selling point, so when stone met that threshold, all those consumers now felt that stone is the choice for them. It wasn’t ISSFA that chose to place all those stone tops in the ads in Better Freakin’ Homes magazine. We all whine about how well the stone industry played this latest hand. Then we turn around and discuss how unorganized they are. If we are getting beat by an industry that can’t even decide if the material stains or not, what does it say about us?
You think ISSFA is not doing what it should. I say it is you who are the new breed that will do it the right way. You, especially, al. You are the one who is putting in the big effort into the testing. Jon is the one putting in the outreach. Reuben is the one bringing in the outside experts to help on these projects. Everyone who is active here is doing something, large or small, to help whatever way they can. ISSFA’s failures are old news. It may be that an association isn’t the place for a revival to happen. If that is the case, they should be irrelevant to you. Not good, not bad, just not there.
Andy once expressed it well. I am paraphrasing, but he essentially said that ISSFA doesn’t matter one way or the other. This is FabNet. You all are doing awesome jobs in helping this industry get back to where it belongs, and you are doing it here. That’s why I am here far more often. That’s why I feel an affinity with most of you guys. That’s why I can tolerate the squabbles and the snipes. Because when a questioon needs an answer, the answers here are fast and detailed. They are varied and they are complete. Forget about stuff you can’t do anything about. You, al, as well as Gordon and Gordon, Shane and John and john and jon, and Joe, and someone else with a J – ish sound to their name, you guys are where its at. Don’t worry about anyone else.
The industry will regain its bearings because of guys like you. Everything else is just noise in the background.
Tom
Tom, you know I respect your opinion, so when I answer, it is only to clarifiy.
I brought up issfa only because I feel it is so important for someone to answer the attacks on our trade.
You, as usual, brought up some extremely relevant points about the lower cost of stone, and the magazines featuring it so much. I have found in life that many times that that brings us together will eventually drive us apart. Cheaper pricing on stone is lowering the quality of work in the trade, something that I wish the companies that provide those who sell sheets to home owners would understand. The tide is turning on the magazines championing of stone, they need to replace all those kitchens they sold ten years ago and need a new style to push.
However, I believe that the stone industry is in no way unorganized, just the opposite! The MIA has copyrighted copy defending their product that is free to use and post on individuals websites. The stone guys actively visit consumer sites and champion their product while activley trashing our trade. True they do resort to deception, but perhaps it is just stupidity or ignorance on their part, or even that they don’t want to admit the staining and bacteria issues. Perhaps they can not afford to if they have a huge stone cutting cnc to make payments on.
Yes, ISSFA is indeed illrelevant. What I respectfully objected to was the request that we ignore these attacks on solid surface. Squabbles and snipes, yes, we are all a bunch of type A personalities, used to running the show in our respective shops, used to people saying we can not succeed (right, Mory?), and set in our ways. Personalities will clash, mine included, but in the end we will find enough good in everyone here to realize that all should be welcome.
Here is the thing, Tom, we can do something about misinformation on the web. Many are sites on pdf or company websites that we can’t answer directly, but others are public forums that we can post comments on or about. Make these fools back up their claims, show their deception and they will mend their ways.
So do we act like the french or the isralies? Throw down our rifles in surrender or go to uganda and get our people back?
Al,
Act like the French? Mais non! C’est impossibile! Sacre’ bleue!
I agree with most of what you are saying. My point was not to wail against the stone storm, far from it. Head into that gale armed with facts and figures. Call them on their opinions, which seem to be everywhere at once. My point is that ISSFA is not doing much on this front, and from what I see with their new mission statement, it is unlikely to.
So don’t think twice about them. It is not their fault that the stone trade has gotten accessible. You certainly could argue that they dropped the ball, for whatever reason. It won’t do us or you any good. Stay the course, because we have taken the helm, and godspeed us on our course. Think about the goal.
The rest is merde.
Tom
Dave,
Regarding that second link, about the relative harmlessness of everyday bacteria:
I have been saying much the same as this article for years about anti-bacterial agents in general. Nature abhors a vacuum. I wonder what she’ll come up with to replace the bacteria we have killed.
That he does not seem to mention truly bad bacteria: e coli, botulism, fecal contamination, etc. is what belies his point. But to be honest, I agree with a lot of the anti anti-bacterial guys. I don’t see it too far removed from the global warming scare.
Tom
Al,
One step at a time. We can’t change the world today. What you are doing is great and in a short while we will have some great information. I think we all need to keep in mind that stone guys have been around for hundreds of years. SS has been around for 30. Huge difference and that is probably the main reason the Stone guys have a better handle on things.
Let’s just stick with it and we can make a change. Let the other associations do what they do and we can do what we do.
Below is the response I left for the first link you posted. I will post the response if I get one.
Bacteria: Bacteria requires several things in order to thrive and grow: oxygen, water, sunlight, nutrients, and a substrate to form on. The minerals in granite are toxic to bacteria. As a result, there is no habitable environment for bacteria to live and grow on a granite surface.
This claim is found on your website. I am curious if this is backed by any testing. If a customer of mine buys a granite slab from you and it is found to have bacteria in it, will you pay for the removal of the granite from my customers home?
I am concerned that this claim can not be backed up with any evidence.
Thank You,
Andy
Hey Guys. I think a better explanation is in order. Yes Granite is an important part of many CT business. I just don’t care what Other granite fabricators of granite associations say about Solid Surface.. SS is a great product that has just begun to grow.
Just like Rueben. I can move any Granite Customer to SS its just a better product. Don’t feel bad if you sell SS. Go for the Gusto.
All of you make great points. Tom thanks for watching my back. You the Man!
I may belong to ISSFA. But it doesn’t mean I Like everything they Do. But I’ am going to use them to help the Industry.
Gentlemen,
I’m gonna toss in 2 cents here. As a repair and restoration company we have a myopic view of after sales product issues. So let me just say this. The ability of SS to be seamless, repaired, re-fabricated, re-finished, intergrated with both the backsplashes and the bowl and it’s non-porousity are paramount to keeping it’s market share of sales. The need of granite to be maintained is also a key factor. With both granite and e-stone still being affected by heat (and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise), I just don’t see the SS industry as being in significant danger. When we present all the facts to consumers, the answer becomes very clear. Diversity is absolutely required, but SS is here to stay (all puns intended). It is the only choice that has those traits and is still what I would put in my kitchen. BTW granite is failing at much faster pace than SS. We work on many stone tops that are just a couple to five years old.
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