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Posts
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Hi Kelsey,
Yes I know if you dont sand out the lines you get a white line on the seam interface. What I was suggesting is that you call the Formica folks and see if a different grit on the backsanding resulted in a situation where you could just clean with alcohol, wipe and then seam without any sanding, or with much less sanding by the fabricator.
We have addressed this issue with a technical brief. Here is the link to the document on the website.
Lenny Rolls eyes!Yes Matt, I think Kelsey knows you have to sand out the white lines before seaming or you get a white line in the seam interface.
What I was proposing is putting a less aggressive sanding on the backside. One scuffed up enough not to require extra sanding to accomplish mechanical bonding. But a sanding that did not require extra time (or required less time) for the fabricator to sand out white lines.
Im sure I could fix that easily, so Im sure you guys could fix it easily too.
Just sayin.
If anyone takes the Formica published fabricating guidelines seriously, they may be in for a colateral problem in doing so. The guidelines addressing sanding the back of the sheet and the face of the joining edge stack piece suggest using a random orbit sander for this process. I would say that using a random orbit sander is likely going to give you a slightly rolled edge (especially if you need to sand enought to get rid of the white linear balt sanding scratches). The edge piece of the stack will likely also have a slightly rolled edge. If you put the two pieces together you will double the affect. This will result in a thick glue line at the edge, unless you trim at least 1/8 ” off after glueing.
You can mitigate this by sanding the back of the sheet in the edge area before cutting to size. Likewise with the edge strips. If you sand the back side before cutting you will only roll the edges on the two outside pieces, r allow yourself enough waste to cut the roll off also.
Johnny C
Posted By Matt Dufinetz on 18 Mar 2011 09:29 AM
We have addressed this issue with a technical brief. Here is the link to the document on the website.
Matt, I have worked with every brand, love the dark colors. I use DANI’S PERFECT FINISH and have always achieve a superior finish, great depth totally even finish.
Johnny C is right about the orbital… however I used a festool hard pad, even then I got a line in the edge buildup and had to cut the entire face back some.
I can tell you… when I was sanding the backs… I was thinking.. “why am i doing this? I even tried to run a strip through my wide belt sander… rolled the edges…
How about addressing the issue with something other than a technical piece of paper. The box stores are killing us on price… profits are lower, and to fab a product I have to spend more time with with unknown results… no thanks.
KC
We just use a PSA sanding disk stuck to a piece of solid surface. Scuffs it enough to get the mechanical bond and doesn’t round the edges.
Posted By Andy Graves on 18 Mar 2011 10:43 PM
We just use a PSA sanding disk stuck to a piece of solid surface. Scuffs it enough to get the mechanical bond and doesn’t round the edges.Not talking about abrading it Andy, talking about sanding out the scratches on the back.
You use a belt sander for that, I used the Rotex with a hard pad.My question to the manufacturer would be why? What purpose or reasoning is behind doing this? Why create another job for a fabricator to do “by hand” when they have the machine to deliver it to us in a 100% useable condition.
Lenny rolled his eyes about this topic…. I can understand why. The sheets are delivered in a unusable condition… we as fabricators have to modify the backs of every sheet to make it usable.
Avonite certainly doesn’t deliver poly sheets like that… I cut strips, abrade the surfaces, clean and glue. Plus I get a 36″ sheet to work with!!!
Posted By Andy Graves on 18 Mar 2011 10:43 PM
We just use a PSA sanding disk stuck to a piece of solid surface. Scuffs it enough to get the mechanical bond and doesn’t round the edges.Andy… I would, but I trust all my sanding needs to Festool!
I’m reading through the Formica specs and thinking, “If you do that, you’re gonna roll those edges.” Two posts later, Johnny articulated my thoughts before I even had a chance to type them.
If I were copywriting in Chinese, I’d get a Chinese guy to proofread my stuff before I told everyone that Coke brings your ancestors back from the dead. Solid surface manufacturers would be wise to do the same. Run your technical stuff by the guys who have to make a living from your products and are the first to get a callback. We’ll be happy to set you straight. For a small fee, of course.
Joe
Form knowing the F Mica organization and many other Ss managemant orgs, it will be a cold a cold day in hell Joe, when they stoop to your junior college writing abilities.
Posted By Lenny E on 17 Mar 2011 09:38 PM
Hi guys I just found this.You are correct, Formica SS is a polyester blend and the fabrication methods Formica recommends are similar to working with an Avonite polyester product.
Yes the material is different than acrylic and it has its advantages and disadvantages. It is more brittle, but it resists solvents much better than acrylics and it’s easier to provide patterns with the depth that designers like. I could go on and on, but those of you who work with multiple materials are familiar with all the nuances.
As for the hardness issue it’s just as hard as an acrylic solid surface. Last time I checked the barcol hardness was generally in the 62-64 range.
The scratching differences are interesting. Darker patterns manufactured from both poly blend and acrylic materials scratch exposing the filler resulting in a white line. But the morphology of the scratch is different. If you examine the scratch under high magnification the polyester blend scratching cross section is more of a sharp V. The acrylic scratch cross section is more of a U shape, so the scratch tends to be more noticeable in a poly blend.
As for the back sanding that is per Formica specification. Since the interface of polyester blends need to be sanded prior to joining I am betting Formica thinks they are doing you a favor by providing the back sanding they do.
Changing the grit on back sanding is easy. It’s a belt change. If you contact the Formica folks, I am sure they could provide a back sanding that is to your liking.Formica seems to sell quite a bit of the material. I think they have a broad niche.
Back on topic… I went back to the job… been installed for 3 weeks to check on a question they had about their top. This is an older couple, one of the most expensive homes on the lake… everything very well kept. He said he was getting some marks on their top. When I looked at it, it was one of those OMG moments. This top looked as if it had been down for 10 yrs.
From a distance, it looked fine, but then in the light… it was full of scratches, scrapes, it looked bad, very bad.
The color is Copper Matrix a dark orangy red. When I was fabricating this, I knew it was different, it just felt soft, hard to sand to get the haze out.The customer said, this is not about you, you did an awesome job fabricating this, but why would a company ,make such a product that would look like this after such a short use.
I’ve offered to go back and resand one time free… I didn’t tell him this… but I would like to find out why Formica would offer a product that is not really suitable for use in a residential kitchen..IMO… I’ll never sell another job of it…Those types of products give the solid surface industry a bad name. I wouldn’t be surprised if your customer calls the product Corian. Really sucks for both you and the customer.
I have worked with other colors that did not show scratches like what you are talking about. Wonder if it is just a few colors they offer.
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