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OK, here is my last question for the day…I think?
We are including backsplashes within the pricing for our solid surface tops. Standard is 3″ tall, but we will include up to 5″ with no extra charge. No price reduction for someone that wants no splashes if they are tiling or the like. How does this fit with the rest of the fine fabricators here?
Thanks once more!
Fred
Our sq. ft. price includes no back splashes. If they are tiling we usually get them to upgrade to a tile cove. Most choose a full 3″ cove as an upcharge and a few go with an applied 3″ splash which is an upcharge as well. If it’s a 6″ or more splash we charge extra for the material as we have to buy extra.
Paul
We charge by the Sq Ft. and backsplashes are not included. We prefer 3 1/2″ high but will go to 4″ without extra charge. After that we add an extra charge for seaming the splash together from less than optimum dimension pieces. We also charge for installing a set on splash based on the lineal footage.
Johnny C.
we charge less for backsplash, about $10 foot less. Try to get them to do 2 5/8″ so two peices can be ripped out of a strip, let them decide how much they want to spend.
On a 30″ sheet, how are you coming up with the material for the splash?
We are doing all of our straight rips with Festool plunge/circular saw and a very sharp blade to keep cutout waste to a minimum. Our standard is to add 3/4″ drop edge so our finished tops are about 3cm, like a stone top. we do the drop edge double thick and this leaves just enough for a 3″ splash. We have been fabing for a couple of months like this and I am not real sold on it and thinking of making a change. Seems this layout only works for tops that have only back splash and no return or side splashes. We have had good client reception to the 3cm thick, so we will probably keep doing that and keep offering tall edge at an up charge. Not real sure what to do with splashes, but it seems we are leaving money on the table here.
I am sure you guys are doing a good job on your tops, so don’t take this the wrong way. In our showroom, we keep a couple of edge chunks of vertical edges that we have replaced due to failure and point out to customers that one of the quikest ways to find out if a fabricator is willing to cut corners is to reach under the edge and see if it is a vertical instead of stacked edges.
Hang on till the flaming starts, I am sure it can be done properly if care is taken. What we point out is that the glue surface area is 1.5″ deep versus 1/2″ or 1″ deep, plus it takes two layers of 1 1/2″ glue, 3″ total surface area holding that edge on. Plus, the strength of a beam (which is what an edge build up is) is squared with it’s depth, so 1.5″ wide is about twice as strong as 1″ wide. Plus, where will the material break if you strike it with a hammer, the glue or the material? We tell people that our way uses 3 times the material and six times the glue over the singel 1/2″ thick verticle edge. Also, the trimming and sanding are a lot more work. Just our way of selling against competitors, use what you got.
My only point is that a verticle edge has the appearance of being weaker if it is not in fact. Your competitors will use this against you. A 2″ wide stacked edge is even a better selling point. That said, the way you are doing it is a good idea on some points as it gives you a splash for no extra material.
Good point Al and I am not at all offended. Most of our tops are made for new home builders and they are always looking to shave a buck. In our local market, the only people building any quantity are the entry-level home builders. That is how we ended up with the standards we have now.
We do inform everyone that buys direct from us our “standard” tops are a price point item and there are other options available to get a higher quality top. We are just starting to go after the retail market and that is why I am asking some of these questions. I know we offer better service than our local competition and want to make sure we match preferably exceed their quality too.
Fred
Realworld:
You are leaving money on the table by giving away splashes.
Al:
You are giving money away by paying way too much for underlayment.
Plus, Shane and I, using 3/4″underlayment, can shim tops 1/4″ before the shims show. You can’t.
I have done a single dropped edge occasionally for over a decade and have never had a callback. I’ll sell that against anyone anywhere anyday.
Surface area, smurface area. If you whack a solid surface edge with a hammer, it’s a callback I don’t care how much or how wide you stack.
No flames,
Joe
We started off using 3/4″ underlayment, but once in a while we would have to shave off a bit of something that got in the way. Got lazy and decided just to get it up out of the way with 1″.
Price for underlayment? I bought over 500 sheets of 1/2″ plywood at an auction for about a buck a sheet, been using it for the last three years. Got tons of mdf melamine as well, still have a few units of it that we use for cabinets.
Do you guys really shim under cabinets? We insist on them being level or at least in plane or we pack up the tools. I know, older remodels need some attention, but it doesn’t take but a few minutes to screw some plywood scrap where it is needed for full support and we charge enough on remodels to cover it. A short cedar shim would keep me awake at night, even if there was a bunch of them. I try my best to build it as if someone was going to walk on them. Probally 25% of our tops are remodels that need to be checked, the rest are our own cabinets so unlevel isn’t an issue, my guys know I will masicate posteriors over cabinets installed improperly.
Ever done a chiseled edge on solid surface? I did one with a bush hammer like they use on granite. I wouldn’t try that on a vericle edge. I have one top in my showroom that got bumped by the bumper of a truck that was trying to back in a storm shelter trailer into a home and garden show. It left a scratch that is still there today, but did’t break the edge or top.
Not flaming here, Joe, but a stacked edge will survive a cast iron skillet whack better than a verticle edge.
I’m just saying……..first amendment and all that….
I’m with you Al. I installed a top between two walls a while back and the walls were a little out of whack, although when I finally managed to get the top in there was enough space for movement on each end. The top actually got jambed between the walls about a foot above the cabinets. There was quite a bit of flexing trying to get this top in, had it not been a two inch stack edge I think I would have heard that dreaded popping sound.
Al
You do alot of Avonite if I remember correctly, plywood is not a suitable underlayment. In fact, I would not use plywood under any material, it moves too much. MDF is the material of choice. I too like the 15/ 16 or 7/8″ , but a single drop edge on acrylic is plenty strong. On Poly you need to double up your edge or do a stack edge, but I also always charged more for edges that require a thicker build up, ie chiseled or bullnose etc. I also always ran three strips lenghwise, front middle and back which I also attached in the shop. I know Tom Pinske recommends putting your front build down strip right against the dropped edge for additional support. He said he has done it for years and never had a call back..
Wags,
sorry but the Avonite manual doesn’t specify what type of underlayment although it does touch on thickness and spacing. However, near the start of section 3.5 (overhangs) it mentions specifically “plywood underlayment”, second paragraph.
Again in the chart below that paragraph, it mentions plywood underlayment for the second time. Also in section 3.1 it mentions “wooden substrates” when talking about gluing the top down.
The reason I don’t use MDF is it’s weakness in narrow (4″) widths. Cut 10″to 12″ wide, it is very stiff, but too wide for a substrate. Plywood is much stiffer, especially when laminated together. I agree that large sheets of plywood can bow, but as a cabinet maker, few narrow rips will bow and we keep pallet racks of scrap like that for ledgers and toe kicks. We use units of mdf every month, but any rips under 10 1/2″ wide are trash as it is a poor material for cabinet making when ripped smaller.
Expansion on polyester is 3/16″ per ten foot of run, if I remember right. Plywood does expand both with and along the grain. If the rate of expansion was the same as poly, we are talking .00625 expansion across the 4″ width, which the silcone can handle I would think. Plus the entire frame is wood glued and pinned together. It ain’t going anywhere.
When decking a roof with plywood, it is expected for it to get wet before the shingles are put on. Recomended practice is to allow 1/8″ space on both length and width. Do the math and you get .0052 expansion across a 4″ wide plywood strip, really close to polyester and even closer to acrylic expansion rate.
Perhaps MDF is a better substrate, but till Avonite says otherwise, I’m sticking with plywood.
Pinske might be getting away with it, but the Avonite manual insists on 1/8″ of an inch clearance on the front edge to the substrate. Always risky to not follow the rules. I know I don’t want to wake up in five years and have a bunch of failures that are my responsibility to fix.
Also, Staron manual advocates plywood on overhangs as well as well as saying to use full plywood substrates on raised bars. Formica lists plywood and kiln dried lumber, maple and oak prefered, for substrate.
Sorry to argue with you, but I have been reading and rereading those damn manuals for a couple of months now working on the fabnet manual. Some of it is slowly sinking in.
Al, I use plywood also. Tech Products sells a 1″ plywood that is undersized, matches up perfect on a stacked edge. Most of the manuals call for moisture resistant mdf anyway, I doubt most are using it. The stuff is green and when you cut it I believe the resulting dust will kill you. I’ll take my chances with plywood.
I can’t remember the last time we installed countertops on cabinets that were pre leveled. We always have to level them.
Just a note, I haven’t heard of people using plywood as an support strips, but sounds like it would be fine. If either one gets wet it’s no good so I guess it doens’t matter.
I have done a single dropped edge occasionally for over a decade and have never had a callback. I’ll sell that against anyone anywhere anyday.
Joe,
Sorry I’m coming so late into this, but there is a difference between drop and stacked because it is better. You can certainly argue whether the difference is worth the difference in dollars, and you probably have the winning hand, as far as technical issues go, but there is certainly a difference. The more you move solid surface toward the “good for the money”, if you are admirably trying to keep standards high [edit], you are forced to give up options of choice. That is a very important loss. Remove choices, and you take the product down a rung.
You can always offer greater edge choice, or give Mrs. Buyer a better feel, a cleaner area above the dishwasher, etc, at the more expensive price, as you should, but isn’t that admitting that it is, you know, better?
Plus, Shane and I, using 3/4″underlayment, can shim tops 1/4″ before the shims show. You can’t.
While this isn’t much of an issue with CNC’ers, and while there are outside circumstances that support always shimming and trimming, I rank it with no flaking over the dishwsher. You guys get easier fastening though, so that counts.
Dead right about the money/splash bit.
Al: Not flaming here,
Joe: No flames,
What are you guys? Made of paper?
The upshot is that this should be a premium product that is how we talk about it, that is the image we beg to portray. The more decisions are made that move the product away from that image, indeed that fact, then the less premium this product is. How low you wanna go?
Am I the only guy who uses steel as support on eating overhangs?
Tom
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